Williston, ND Active Issues

Slette · Veteran Member

RE: Public Forums for 1% sales tax

rwaitman · Senior Member

Dave...Although I know I am preaching to the choir, I want to get this out as a philosphical position. Logic rules. I am hopeful that this emotional, controversial, and ideological proposal for a 1 cent (or 1% if you will), will pass. I have always been of the mindset, that on any issue, people of common sense, honesty, and integrity, will form an initial position, and it will, over time, evolve into a logical and final perspective upon which they then act, confident that they are making the correct and proper decision. Inevitably people will sometimes disagree. This process does not make us flip floppers, it is not wishy washy, it is what open-minded individuals do. It means that you listen to me, and I listen to you, and then I do more homework, and then you do more homework, then we do it again, and then again, trying to find compromises on a position. I get to try to persuade you of the "rightness" of my perspective and will give you the courtesy of doing the same. The problem that continues to crop up is that some, will not accept give and take...rather it is "my way, or the highway" and this is a recipe for non-success. That mindset has been an historical failure in some ways in our our community. This one issue might be a catalyst for change and a bridge to a new spirit of cooperation for the greater good. I have every confidence that the sales tax proposal will pass, and look forward to participating in any way that I can, to help make this town a come-to place rather than a can't-wait-to-leave-here place.

...good luck to WPR

;o)

editorial note...my grammar and punctuation sucked...had to fix it... R

-- Edited by rwaitman on Sunday 6th of November 2011 08:21:11 AM

-- Edited by rwaitman on Sunday 6th of November 2011 09:43:35 AM

Steve Powell · Guru

Dave, if the sales tax passes, something that I think would really work well for you guys would be to add an area to the center that includes activities for kids to excercise without really thinking about excercise.

I would invite you to take a look at The Neighborhood at the Rochester MN Athletic Club. I have brought my family there many, many times with my brother Jim and his family. We spend the better part of a day there since there are so many things to do. Dodgeball, floor hockey, golf cages, batting cages, basketball court, mini-golf, and the list goes on. Concessions with wi-fi so we can sit and have coffee and either work or just read. It's an incredible experience.

Now I don't expect you guys to go to that extent because I'm guessing that part of the building probably cost as much as the building you guys have planned for. But I think it would help membership if you had a place specifically for kids much like The Neighborhood.

At any rate, I'm going to try and recruit as many people as I can to come with me to vote on Tuesday. Every vote is going to count in order to get this thing to pass.

Best of luck, Dave!!

Slette · Veteran Member

Randy, I just read your letter to the editor in the Herald. Thank you for your support on the sales tax vote. There is no time like now to move into our future. And what a future it could be. If the vote is a YES on Tuesday, I know it wont be long before we as a board set up more public forums as to what the building would include. You are so right that it is not about 5 people laying this out. We ALL as a community need to throw our 2 cents in on all the things that a new building like it would house. It could be a very exciting time coming up. What a fun thing to be a part of. THANKS AGAIN Randy, And I hope to see you at a meeting real soon to help us with the building a a new Rec Center. Remember to go vote Tuesday Everybody!!!!!

Steve Powell · Guru

I already corrected my mistake.

Sue Evans · Senior Member

Steve,

I did see a post by you in another arena that stated something about the retirement of half this one cent once the rec center is completed. Where did you obtain this information? I did not gather this from the language on the ballot. It was not a clearly drafted provision stated in the wording. Do you have a document that you could post that would define your comment?

rwaitman · Senior Member

My personal reluctance to get on board with the proposed 1 cent tax has been specifically related to my fear that an untouchable and designated percentage of the money would not be guaranteed for a specific or specific projects. With the determination to move forward with the new Community Center, as defined by the ballot proposal, Williston Parks and Rec has done this. A 1 cent tax is NOT a lot of money when used in a beneficial manner, especially not in these times, and in this place.

Do I agree with some of the other projected projects in the preliminary budget? No! ...but that is an entirely different matter. Could a budget jump from something like 1.7 million dollars to 2.5 million in one fell swoop create a windfall for WPR that could be misused? Could the Park District get all giddy with the money falling off trees and go crazy with it? Possibly. ...and possibly not. The point is, that if you are more concerned about how the Park District will use the operations half of the 1 cent tax, than how it is spent for construction of the new Rec Center, then you should run for one of the seats that will be open soon.

If you think creatively, rather than stressing about the "20 year fear", you could actually conceive a scenario in which the Park District takes a couple or three years to update, upgrade, and enhance the immediate needs of the community park and recreation system, and then rather than putting all the excess revenues into a trust fund or into personal "pork projects", the Park Board could use that money to pay down the bonding on the Rec Center even faster....the sky is the limit.

So, there are actually two things in play here, and lets not confuse the one with the other.

...and either way, the more people who post, the more people will become informed. One thing the few of us who post on here have accomplished is that people are reading what we say, whether or not they are responding publicly.

;o)

R

Steve Powell · Guru

There is something in that century code that talks about 90 days on special elections but I can't tell if it refers to this situation.

At any rate, I personally feel there is a little more that can be worked out before bringing this to another vote so the next general election is the time frame I personally would give this.

Sigma · Veteran Member

Sue Evans wrote:
16.1-01-11 (going from memory without looking again)
http://www.legis.nd.gov/cencode/t161c01.pdf

Thanks for the link, Sue. You have a great ability to source your comments, and I certainly appreciate that

It sounds, though, that the plan the Parks & Rec will be getting from Greenway is based on their current budget, and they won't have anything done at the potentially higher budget. I can't imagine they'll have any additional information ready for an election in 12 or even 18 months without spending additional money for a plan to be done at the higher funding level.

On a seperate by related note...

I laugh everytime I read 16.1-01-14 line 12 and 13. Leave it to North Dakota legislators to give a big middle finger to the Feds, but to put it in the Century Code and make it a perminent fixture, even if it is found to be unconstituional, is a feat that requires truely huge, um...egos.

Sorry to threak jack...I'll be quiet now.

Sue Evans · Senior Member

This is the actual news broadcast. I do not know who supplied the information to the reporter pertaining to a revote.

http://www.kumv.com/News_video.asp?news=48124

here is the Law. Bottom of page 9. Steve, if you found another notation for special elections that fits in with bonds and mills I would like you to post. This is what I located.

16.1-01-11 (going from memory without looking again)

http://www.legis.nd.gov/cencode/t161c01.pdf

Steve Powell · Guru

Sue, can you put the correction here? I think the true fact is that this can be re-vote on since this was a "special election". Correct?

Sue Evans · Senior Member

I do think for many items listed, such as the pool, the golf couse etc...There are user fees.

ND Law - 16.1-01-11 may interest a few

This is for our election laws. We did not vote on a bond nor a mill levy. We voted on a Sales Tax. The law states that in no event can an election for the same general matter be held for 12 consecutive calendar months.

This should give the Park Board enough time to complete the study commissioned by them of items that need to be completed. This should be done prior to asking the public for more tax dollars. The full direction headed with this tax needs to be enlightened. The actual scope of the projects. If the board still intends to seek a fund much like the "Star Fund", the application process, - who, what, area covered(ND, Mont.), amt...Let us see it. Who will be in charge. Extra staff?? Can this be done in less time?

There will be a General Election in 2012. Good time to fit it in.

Don't ask for the moon and stars. Look for what is actually required.

bowhunter_bj · Member

I know ALOT of people use the Parks & Rec Facilities that do not live in the city limits, alot of surrounding towns kids, & adults come in to play volleyball, basketball, kids baseball, why wouldn't we let them help us pay for a renovation? Instead of just the City of Williston Residents? Does that mean that we should only allow the City of Williston residents to use these facilities?? We're paying for them, not everybody else who is shopping in town. So no more out of town softball teams, that eliminates alot of kids playing on the playground by Western Star 3 nights a week, which means less broken down equipment & swings on the playground, which means the Parks & Rec won't have to spend as much money upkeeping that playground....the same for Spring Lake Park, Outdoor Pool, Golf Course, even the Raymond Center (although I kind of like playing basketball their with scoreboards that don't work 1/2 the time, rims on the baskets hanging down, lights that don't work), but that would change if we eliminate alot of "out of towners" using the raquetball courts, weightroom, basketball courts, now they would have a lot less people up there & could keep a closer eye on what is going on and fix it sooner. The Parks & Rec is going to have to close down some facilities to save money to upkeep others, and the Raymond Center. The outdoor pool would be a good place to start, and possibly the golf course (although it would be like a private club, city residents only). Or how about a sign at each Parks & Rec Facility.

SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE
IF YOU ARE NOT A WILLISTON RESIDENT, YOU WILL HAVE
TO PAY DOUBLE TO USE THIS FACILITY, AS IT IS FUNDED BY CITY
OF WILLISTON RESIDENTS ONLY...PLEASE TAKE A TISSUE FOR YOUR CHILD
WHEN YOU TELL HIM/HER THEY CANT PLAY IN THE ACTIVITIES ANY MORE.
SINCERELY,
CITY OF WILLISTON RESIDENTS

vko · Senior Member

Steve - been watching and waiting. Our land out east with 5 Man camp homes - our land went from 50000.00 to 450,000.00 - hello - until we explained some one else owns the homes and we are just renting the land. On every part of our land 5000.00 is added per section. Watching and waiting. What people say will happen and what actually happens is sometimes two different things.. Our Williston property also took a jump. Just added tax on those assessments. I don't believe it until I see it anymore, that this will happen if you vote this way or that way. Also never said a yea or nay on public forums, not my business.

-- Edited by vko on Wednesday 13th of April 2011 08:43:23 PM

Steve Powell · Guru

Sue Evans wrote:
Steve,
Easy to explain, the more your property is worth, the higher your tax is.
One more thing - The city is looking to annex more area into the city. Put on your thinking cap. It looks pretty positive that this will occur.

-- Edited by Sue Evans on Wednesday 13th of April 2011 06:24:59 PM

Unless the city "rides the mill" as they are supposed to do. Correct? Plus we'll be getting property tax relief from the state again this biennium.

Sue Evans · Senior Member

Steve,

Easy to explain, the more your property is worth, the higher your tax is.

One more thing - The city is looking to annex more area into the city. Put on your thinking cap. It looks pretty positive that this will occur.

-- Edited by Sue Evans on Wednesday 13th of April 2011 06:24:59 PM

NDGirl · Veteran Member

Those of us who have already recieved our increase notices from the city/county have seen an significant increase in our property taxes. Think the 25,000+ increase on properties that have not had any changes made to them. We have to pay for Menards some how.

Steve Powell · Guru

Could you explain to me what you mean by property tax increase?

Sue Evans · Senior Member

There are a lot of "What ifs" when banking on sales tax as a means of support. It seems to have gone well for the school district though. A huge bond pd in a short amt. of time. What is done is done, we could not encourage the board to consider a half penny. I do hope there was a plan B. I suspect the parks did understand this may not pass and would have to maintain as usual. This could mean increased fees for those who participate in programs and this should be understood as they are accustomed to increases in fuel, grocery and yes, now activities. The parks will be getting the financial boost from the new property tax increase that we all are presented with. Gate fees for games can also be increased. There are still many areas to tap. Concessions? (no outside food or beverage) Old fashion fund raisers. Rummage sale benefits. I can think of many ways to raise funds.

I would like to point out, the cost of living is very high. Every penny does count. 60% of our seniors are at or below poverty level. Many here live pay check to pay check. We can not tax for everything. Property is soaring, people loosing their housing due to their apt building being sold. We are having some very stressed times. So many wondering more about traffic signals than park bathrooms, yet others state driving into this city say how dirty it looks just upon arrival. People who drive from Minot daily to work here and are hoping to have a motel room for 1 wk, 2 wks from now. Transit compensation being cut down, stressing our local service is another big issue.

rwaitman · Senior Member

Good one Steve.

As you said somewhere, you really have learned a lot. I hope the comments remain constructive on everyone's part.

Steve Powell · Guru

About as close to the main source as you could possibly get.

rwaitman · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:
According to sources, there won't be another go at this.

...and those sources would be?

Steve Powell · Guru

According to sources, there won't be another go at this.

rwaitman · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:
So at .5 cent, Sue, what would the parks and rec do if taxable sales suddenly dropped to early 1990's level?

Prepare a new budget and live within your means.

Conversely, the question becomes, "at 1.0 cents,what would parks and rec do if the taxable sales suddenly dropped to early 1990's level? The logical answer is, there would be a motion, a vote, and money would be transferred from the "facilities"...uhhh.... "infrastructure", uhhhh.... I mean "slush" fund.

Okay, having said that I apologize for the facetiousness, given that emotions are high.

I am excited to see what the new version will be, once the master plan study, and tweaking of the proposed measure have been completed, am looking forward to being able to get on board and support a 1 cent tax which will benefit, not only the parks and recreation department, but the greater community as well.

Steve Powell · Guru

So at .5 cent, Sue, what would the parks and rec do if taxable sales suddenly dropped to early 1990's level?

Slette · Veteran Member

One word says it all...........CLUELESS

Sue Evans · Senior Member

Steve,

It was a tax that was wanted as a forever issue. I do know that once a tax is there, history has it, that we do not remove it. Most of us supported the idea of a half cent. Many of us did not relish the idea of another "Star Fund" idea. There were many of us who wanted to know what oversight there would be with such a large amt. Why did they feel they needed so much and the need to develop funds to distribute? How, where, when, what, who ??? many questions surround the excess money.

Had the park board agreed to seek the half cent, this would have passed. They may not be so lucky seeking this a second time now. The county is now in the process of sending out property tax increases. I do not think this will help with the current figure of savings on property tax the park board had worked out for home owners. It will increase the amt. the park will get from our property though - wouldn't it? Perhaps this will assist with the approx. $700'000 they are seeking for 2012. We do have a lot of building going on - increased property value - add these to the budget and work out the green fees for the golf course, increase the swim fees...There are ways to work some things out.

I would have voted yes today for a half cent.

-- Edited by Sue Evans on Tuesday 12th of April 2011 11:25:49 PM

Slette · Veteran Member

Cannot wait for our Park Board meeting next Tuesday night. 1138 people should be there telling us what we are going to do over the next 5 years to improve our department. Or will they just go hide under a rock like usual until the next vote when they can come back out and take more things from our kids. UNBELIEVABLE

bohdan · Veteran Member

The city of Williston just failed the young people of this community. Good Job!

Steve Powell · Guru

So what's the next step?

Will they address the concerns that people expressed prior to this vote and try again? Will they wait for the next park board election?

Where is the other 1.5 percent of our sales tax going? Star Fund and what else?

I sent a letter today to Representatives Sukut and Hattlestad asking why the state still needs a full 5 cents considering how un-revenue balanced they are right now. I told them my thoughts on the state dropping a couple cents to provide room for local municipalities to drop mills and add a cent or two for themselves.

Representative Sukut responded by saying there was billions in infrastructure problems coming down the pike but then at the same time said they were trying to drop government growth to less than 10 percent which would be half of what it was the last 2 bienniums. So that part of his response was a bit confusing to me. He did say that my idea was a good idea though.

Sue, do you feel there is a need for additional income for the Parks and Rec? If not, have you been to the office to look at the budget?

I wonder how many people based their no vote out of spite for someone there that they don't get along with? Those instances are too bad, really.

Well, just a few thoughts outta my pea brain. Anyone care to add? Questions?

bohdan · Veteran Member

I sure hope that when this is official the numbers are flipped.

Sigma · Veteran Member

What an absolute pity...

Sue Evans · Senior Member

The final canvass on the vote. Per law 16.1-15-02 The public may attend - I attended amoung others

Canvas report was 2245 total votes

NO 1138

YES 1107

Steve Powell · Guru

Nice...you must have gone in this morning. I was there around 2 and the count was at 1135.

This could be a huge turnout considering the numbers they should see at 6:00.

Good job Williston!!! And kudos to the Parks and Rec for getting the citizens of Williston involved in their community!

Clarke · Veteran Member

Done....I think I was #713 or so :)

Steve Powell · Guru

If you haven't already....GET OUT AND VOTE!!!

I'm on my way right now.

NDGirl · Veteran Member

vko wrote:
Sue, we in the County, already got one of those slip of papers. About two weeks ago.

They started sending them out in the city this past week. We recieved one for both.

vko · Senior Member

Sue, we in the County, already got one of those slip of papers. About two weeks ago.

Sue Evans · Senior Member

With a full penny, just one penny - add it up. The current value would give the parks over 4 million a yr. in just pennies. It does not take it totally off our property tax. This is more money than the Fire Dept. and the Police Dept. combined operate on in a yr.

Over this 5 yrs, do you all think you will not get a slip of paper from the county stating your property is now worth more, now your taxes have increased anyways?

60% of our seniors are at or below poverty level. We have many who can not afford these high rents. People who live paycheck to paycheck. Every penny counts.

We need to adjust our thinking caps and find ways to reduce the costs around here, Not increase. We can not do it all.

The school was pd off. That tax was still collected for a full quarter after the debt was retired. Has anyone asked what was done with those pennies? That was just a million or so..

I have run into people who felt that children's programs would be cut by the parks if they do not vote yes. I was amazed at the gamut of misconceptions surrounding this.

vko · Senior Member

True Slette - but if that building ever sells and I hope it does soon, we won't own any property in Williston.

Slette · Veteran Member

VKO

Actually the drop in property tax will benefit you as you and your husband own a building inside the city limits. So you should see a drop in the tax on it.

vko · Senior Member

Sorry Steve, did not mean to interrupt, I just can't vote on this issue. And have no opinion on it. And choose to stay neutral on it. I pay or don't pay, not my issue.

vko · Senior Member

Steve since I don't know how to do this - go to You Tube and Play the video - Ducks against the wind. Some times I feel that way.. smile

Steve Powell · Guru

vko wrote:
ND - I can not vote on issue's in Williston, only my county. Although, I own a building in town. My tax on my building and quarterly sales tax bill, in North Dakota, Williston , and our Williams County, has just become another bill. Am I for this or against it, what does it matter? I can't vote on it.

True, but you can influence people one way or the other.

vko · Senior Member

ND - I can not vote on issue's in Williston, only my county. Although, I own a building in town. My tax on my building and quarterly sales tax bill, in North Dakota, Williston , and our Williams County, has just become another bill. Am I for this or against it, what does it matter? I can't vote on it.

Steve Powell · Guru

Thanks Dave!

We can certainly talk about what we know about why people are for and against this sales tax I guess.

Here's what I know. Please feel free to add to this.

For

Many needs for maintenance, improvements, etc...
Will lower property taxes and places the cost on everyone that uses the facilities and then some.

Against

Tired of high taxes.
Don't trust current leadership
Why give more than they can use.
Don't have a complete plan.
Don't live here and don't want to pay for something they don't use.

This is what I've been hearing. If I'm missing anything please add to this. The fact that I have more against in no way represents how I feel about the tax. This is a black and white issue at this point as far as I'm concerned. However, I could still be swayed if someone can convince me likewise.

Looking back here are a few things I would have done differently that would have erased the doubts of those that are skeptical.

I wouldn't have had a "special election". I questioned this from the beginning. I have saved an inside conversation right from this very message board that would prove that.
This one is hard for me to confirm possible, but I would have gone 3 years instead of 5 as the "trial period". Considering the doubt some people have about the leadership.
I would have made the public more aware of the current budget without forcing them to go to the source. Not everyone has time to do this kind of research. Plus, this is something the Parks and Recreation is asking for so the burdon of proof is on them. They need to sell the tax and showing the existing budget could possibly have cemented this long ago.
I think the public deserves a little more detail on how the money above the current 1.7 million budget is going to be spent. Again, "trust me" isn't a very good way to sell something. Providing facts that people can use to make their decision puts their minds at ease about voting "yes".
If going to 1/2 cent is a possibility (I'm not a fan of government taking more than they spend which includes the billion dollar surplus here in ND), I would have gone this route but would have included, by whatever means possible, a way to re-establish the mill in the property taxes. Again, this all depends on the possibility of being able to do this. If adding the mills back meant bringing that to a vote 3 years down the road, I don't think this is viable considering the voters might not give those mills back.

Some of you reading this may be thinking, "if he has so many ideas, why doesn't he run for park board?" Good question, and probably well deserved. I've been asked that question often. The fact of the matter is, I've thought long and hard about that. Several years ago the answer was a definate, "I am!" However, my motives for doing so were dead wrong. I was dead set on running due to the spite I felt towards the boards handling of the group I belonged to. Well, I've grown up quite a bit since then and I have a far better appreciation for the time these guys sacrifice to be on this board. I also appreciate the resources they all have to offer to get things done. Obviously I don't agree with everything they do, but I greatly appreciate their service to the community.

The possibility remains, however if I do it will be for far different reasons than merely because I want someone else off. If you want someone off, then go out and vote for someone else. You may end up on a board and have absolutely no clue what you're doing.

Well, since that's off my chest...

Please, feel free to add your 1 cent..err...I mean 2 cents to the discussion. The vote is coming in 8 days and the more we can hash this out the more informed the readers will be when it comes time to vote.

Thanks again for the update and for your service to the community, Dave. As stated, I appreciate it tremendously.

NDGirl · Veteran Member

Dumb question i know, but who gets to vote? I'm guessing those of us who live in the county outside city limits will not get a vote.

Slette · Veteran Member

Steve

All in all went really well. There was about 30 people there on Wednesday, and about 50 on Saturday. I would say 70% of people there each time were in favor of the tax. It was the typical questions of where when and who is going to be in charge of the funds.

Clarke · Veteran Member

I wasnt able to make it either....same reasons Steve:)

Any comments? I haven't been filled in yet either.

JC

Steve Powell · Guru

I worked late on Wednesday. Talked to Greg Delmorme about wanting to go that day....just couldn't get there. I was in Dickinson for Trevors bball tourney this weekend. I'd love to hear all about it though.

Would you be willing to give us some of the talk at the meetings?