Williston, ND Active Issues

vko · Senior Member

RE: National Tax

vko · Senior Member

But I am really good at remembering conversations, word for word. Also it help's me fix the tractor, cause I can relate to what Dad said. Yea for me. Do you need your Tractor fixed? biggrin

But part of that is I never talked, just listened.

Sigma · Veteran Member

rwaitman wrote:

which part....the one about the gentle dig, or the part about making us use our brain?

;o)
R

Mostly it was to get people to think. Because I have no doubt around here that people who frequent this board are accustomed to using their brains. It's just how those brains are used that intrigues me.

The gentle dig was more of an unintended bonus.

vko · Senior Member

But I have to think backward's. And then turn it around. biggrin

rwaitman · Senior Member

Sigma wrote:

rwaitman wrote:

vko wrote:

Oh great, just one more thing to think about. What are you talking about?

I think that Sigma is making a statement of Sue's post on the VAT. I always wanted to appear to be smart. If I take a few simple and ahem...poetic statement's and write them down showing how smart I am, I sometimes look stupid instead...because I am pointing them out to show how simple it is to figure out what I said, and the irony is that I make my ownself look not so smart. Which is maybe what I was trying to do in the first place? Kind of a gentle dig on Sigma's part.

Sigma, am I kind of on the mark? Of course I might have entirely missed the mark.

My 80 year old taekwondo instructor has always talked like that... and after 40 years of listening to him, I am used to it... I love this.... Sigma has a brain....and is making us use ours to figure out what in the Sam Hill he is talking about....

;o)
R

-- Edited by rwaitman on Saturday 24th of April 2010 08:33:59 AM

You're too kind, Randy. But generally, that was what I was going for.

which part....the one about the gentle dig, or the part about making us use our brain?

;o)
R

Sigma · Veteran Member

rwaitman wrote:

vko wrote:

Oh great, just one more thing to think about. What are you talking about?

I think that Sigma is making a statement of Sue's post on the VAT. I always wanted to appear to be smart. If I take a few simple and ahem...poetic statement's and write them down showing how smart I am, I sometimes look stupid instead...because I am pointing them out to show how simple it is to figure out what I said, and the irony is that I make my ownself look not so smart. Which is maybe what I was trying to do in the first place? Kind of a gentle dig on Sigma's part.

Sigma, am I kind of on the mark? Of course I might have entirely missed the mark.

My 80 year old taekwondo instructor has always talked like that... and after 40 years of listening to him, I am used to it... I love this.... Sigma has a brain....and is making us use ours to figure out what in the Sam Hill he is talking about....

;o)
R

-- Edited by rwaitman on Saturday 24th of April 2010 08:33:59 AM

You're too kind, Randy. But generally, that was what I was going for.

rwaitman · Senior Member

vko wrote:

Oh great, just one more thing to think about. What are you talking about?

I think that Sigma is making a statement of Sue's post on the VAT. I always wanted to appear to be smart. If I take a few simple and ahem...poetic statement's and write them down showing how smart I am, I sometimes look stupid instead...because I am pointing them out to show how simple it is to figure out what I said, and the irony is that I make my ownself look not so smart. Which is maybe what I was trying to do in the first place? Kind of a gentle dig on Sigma's part.

Sigma, am I kind of on the mark? Of course I might have entirely missed the mark.

My 80 year old taekwondo instructor has always talked like that... and after 40 years of listening to him, I am used to it... I love this.... Sigma has a brain....and is making us use ours to figure out what in the Sam Hill he is talking about....

;o)
R

-- Edited by rwaitman on Saturday 24th of April 2010 08:33:59 AM

vko · Senior Member

Oh great, just one more thing to think about. What are you talking about? biggrin

rwaitman · Senior Member

Sigma wrote:

I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid
And self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.
They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of
owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of
years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.

-Walt Whitman “Song of Myself”

I thought this was rather poignant. But I understand how a person can quote poetry to make themselves seem more intelligent than they are. And how a person can point this fact out to make themselves seem ironic, so that they appear worldly. But once a person points out both of those things, I don’t know what to make of them. Quite contrary, perhaps?

-- Edited by Sigma on Friday 23rd of April 2010 11:55:36 AM

Refreshing...while it is kind of off topic...it brings into the mix...some philosophical meanderings... I'm more of an Odgen Nash sort of a guy...me and old Walt did not never get along too good...

"I never saw a purple cow,
And never hope to see one,
But I can tell you anyhow...
I'd rather see than be one..."

I think you are going to be worth some chuckles, Dude (Dudette?)

;o)
R

Sigma · Veteran Member

I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid
And self-contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.
They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of
owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of
years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the whole earth.

-Walt Whitman “Song of Myself”

I thought this was rather poignant. But I understand how a person can quote poetry to make themselves seem more intelligent than they are. And how a person can point this fact out to make themselves seem ironic, so that they appear worldly. But once a person points out both of those things, I don’t know what to make of them. Quite contrary, perhaps?

-- Edited by Sigma on Friday 23rd of April 2010 11:55:36 AM

vko · Senior Member

Such as I thought. Not a person to really check it out. Too boring and link's not in front of them. confuse

Sue Evans · Senior Member

VAT:
Value Added Tax: VKO you are correct. It is like walking around the house.
Room 1: The seed sold and taxed
Room 2: Grown into produce (value added) Taxed
Room 3: Produce made into various product: ie - Peanut paste (value added) Taxed
ROOMS 4,5,6,7.. made into candy, jars(butter), snack cracker, (value added) Taxed
Room 8: Grocery and sold to consumer - VALUE ADDED and TAXED.

VAT is a tax on every step. It could easily bring an extra 25% increase by the time any product reaches the consumer.

vko · Senior Member

Thank you Sue, you do say it so much simpler than me. And back to Value Added Tax. I am having a hard time understanding this. My parent's used to hide the dishes and non essentials from the person walking around the house to tax them. Are we coming back to that?
Except this time you are getting hit at the store. Does our Government have to fly everywhere. Can't they use the Internet? You all know how to Skype (sp) , I choose to not.
-- Edited by vko on Monday 19th of April 2010 08:19:06 PM

-- Edited by vko on Monday 19th of April 2010 08:33:53 PM

Sue Evans · Senior Member

Nothing stays as it is writen. Severed was the way it began. VKO is letting us know it was expanding into all mineral acres. I talked with sponsors and it was intended to deal with fractional - severed minerals in the beginning. It grew. They began to realize $2 per acre would not sustain this data base and it would soon become more costly. I have been told the idea had not been fully dismissed. It will come up again.

vko · Senior Member

As they were working on it, they talked about severed minerals. Even Non producing minerals. How can you tax something the is not producing anything? Then it became all minerals, as I understood it, that they were considering. You know how they do things. You don't pay attention, and they slip something else in. Now from my point of view, I own the land, I pay tax on that land. I also own the minerals under that exact land, they were working on taxing me for those Non producing minerals under that exact land. Double taxation in my world.

Sigma · Veteran Member

stacyslap wrote:

I found the bill. It was House Bill 1281. Here is a link.

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/61-2009/bill-text/JAOM0100.pdf

Thanks Stacy, I appreciate it. I dug and dug and couldn't find the darn thing. What a silly piece of legislation. Sounds like it was rightfully put down, and let's hope we never hear of it again.

What I'm not clear on is how this could be considered double taxation. Aside from the fact that it's a lousy idea for a bill, if the topic is severed mineral acres, aren't we talking about two different entities, one that owns the minerals and the other that owns the land?

-- Edited by Sigma on Sunday 18th of April 2010 10:48:30 AM

Sue Evans · Senior Member

YES!! Thats it!

stacyslap · Veteran Member

I found the bill. It was House Bill 1281. Here is a link.

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/61-2009/bill-text/JAOM0100.pdf

Sue Evans · Senior Member

I do remember exactly what VKO is talking about. John Andrist was one of the co sponsors of that bill. It began with a rep in Minot. It was bill 1206 or 1209. It has been a while since I did a letter writing campaign against it. It was designed to eliminate factrured mineral interestest but it contained all minerals. It was a $2 per acre tax. The data base to create this tax would have been costly to maintain. The tax would have been yearly. $2 was not enough to keep up with the costs needed to keep up with what the legislators were proposing. Currently we file statements of claim. I contend if a mineral owner does not file this that the surface owner has a right to reclaim the minerals after the duration of time has expired. I managed along with other to pull sponsors from the bill. It is not dead yet. It will rear it's ugly head again. By the way, this tax was going to be applied to to those acres that did not produce a darn thing. The state collects an extraction tax of 11.5% on producing acres.

vko · Senior Member

I did not see it that way. You are partly correct. From my personal perspective (sp) I saw double taxation. You own the land, your taxed. You own the mineral's on that same land, you are taxed again. I know I am dyslexic(sp), again big time, but, I read that, (it wasn't law) but whatever they were going for, every which way but loose, and made my poor, so helpful, husband do the same. (I know I need spell check. Can you do it on here? )

-- Edited by vko on Saturday 17th of April 2010 11:25:51 PM

Steve Powell · Guru

I remember that. It was a ridiculous attempt to force mineral owners to sell their rights to the land owners. If I recall. wink

vko · Senior Member

It was a year or two ago. The main one was from Minot, and the other from Crosby. I think. I book marked it, but that computer crashed. I think I printed it, but have to check my report's on my Farm record's. Sorry. I will look at my computer on Monday when I get to the office. Also at that time, the Williston Herald printed something. And I responded to that article then. I too, am looking.

-- Edited by vko on Saturday 17th of April 2010 09:08:03 PM

Sigma · Veteran Member

vko wrote:

There was a couple of Representative's in North Dakota trying to pass a tax law to tax Mineral owner's the same as Land owner's. That did get shut down. A mineral is nothing unless it produce's something, then it get's taxed today. That will rear it's ugly head again. Alot of State's are Broke, Bankrupted, except for North Dakota. But to just tax a non producing mineral is crazy, what is the next step? Like I say Easy Money for the Government, who is poking their nose in every part of our live's. North Dakota is on the National scene in case you haven't noticed. How fast have thing's changed? Something for nothing. And after getting my new notice's on my County taxes, they are trying to catch up.

-- Edited by vko on Saturday 17th of April 2010 07:45:04 PM

vko,

I've looked and looked, but I can't find any reference to any failed legislation regarding mineral owner taxation. Just because I can't find it online, however, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Do you know any details about the legislation? Did it make it to committee? Who were the Representatives who proposed the legislation?

I'm surprised that a proposal of that significance didn't leave a paper trail (or in this case, an online paper trail.) Any information you have would be helpful.

vko · Senior Member

There was a couple of Representative's in North Dakota trying to pass a tax law to tax Mineral owner's the same as Land owner's. That did get shut down. A mineral is nothing unless it produce's something, then it get's taxed today. That will rear it's ugly head again. Alot of State's are Broke, Bankrupted, except for North Dakota. But to just tax a non producing mineral is crazy, what is the next step? Like I say Easy Money for the Government, who is poking their nose in every part of our live's. North Dakota is on the National scene in case you haven't noticed. How fast have thing's changed? Something for nothing. And after getting my new notice's on my County taxes, they are trying to catch up.

-- Edited by vko on Saturday 17th of April 2010 07:45:04 PM

Steve Powell · Guru

Valuation across the state is high. Demand for everything is high...supply is not. Just how that goes. That's capitalism. I have seen our mils compared to the other major cities across the state and our cities mil really isn't that bad. It's the county mil that makes us seem high.

I haven't heard about the government taking over everyone's minerals. In fact, I have a feeling there would be a civil war if that ever happens.

vko · Senior Member

I really do not know about that, but Williston does have high property taxes. But, personally I think, other Cities, State's, and especially DC, will take North Dakota's oil money. Easy money. They will pass another law saying you Can't own Mineral's, the Government does. They are already trying to tax you on owning Mineral's. And before you say, where do you get that information, look it up. You are all pretty good at not saying anything but throwing web site's in front of everyone. Do your own homework.

Steve Powell · Guru

The one question I have regarding taking the local property taxes away is...how do our local government entities get the money they need to do the things they have been doing? If property taxes are abolished, don't we end up having to battle the rest of the states local governments for funding?

How do we get our fair share of the pie?

vko · Senior Member

I agree Steve, but then the Government couldn't micro manage every part of our lives. That would never do, they have to poke and prod our lives to death.

Steve Powell · Guru

I wonder how much the census bureau costs the government? I do understand there are people that don't pay taxes...that could change though if the census bureau was eliminated. Everyone could be required to turn in a federal return regardless of whether their balance is zero. The head count could then be performed annually rather than every 10 years should they choose to do so. But there could be some consolidation. Eliminate the IRS, establish a flat tax, and have the department governing the flat tax use the returns as their census taker.

I know, not quite that easy...but in my mind makes some sense.

Sue Evans · Senior Member

Glad to see you are familiar with ancestry. It is true we no longer have slaves. (I hope)
There were 2 types of census forms issued for the 2010. My sister in law in Minnesota rec'd the long form. (76 pages)

I got a shortened version. I do understand the bureau has changed their questions through time. The fact remains, it is only a head count.

Sigma, are you trying to point out we should be thankful for which form we got? I agree with Steve. Take the count from the tax form. As the saying goes:

Keep it simple stupid.

Sigma · Veteran Member

Sue Evans wrote:

I don't think Steve meant to get rid of a head count. Just the monkey's who feel it a need to see if we are American, how long it takes us to get to work, if we need help in the bath, our phone number, if we are sure we are answering correct...The census has gone beyond the scope of what it was meant to do. The bureau that has gone beyond the head count.

Here are the questions asked in the 1800 census which was the second census ever performed.

Here are the questions for the 2010 census. I won't go into the varied and detailed questions asked in the various census's between 1800 and 2010, but it seems to me that the 2010 is hardly intrusive all, especially compared to what it has been.

Okay, so I'll go one better...here is the census questions for 1900 Good thing the Census Bureau has backed off a bit for this census, huh?

-- Edited by Sigma on Saturday 17th of April 2010 08:46:38 AM

Sue Evans · Senior Member

I don't think Steve meant to get rid of a head count. Just the monkey's who feel it a need to see if we are American, how long it takes us to get to work, if we need help in the bath, our phone number, if we are sure we are answering correct...The census has gone beyond the scope of what it was meant to do. The bureau that has gone beyond the head count.

Steve Powell · Guru

Hell, if the current admin can do whatever they want with the constitution, why can't I? Why can't our census come from our Federal Tax Return? More people send those in than the actual census.

Sigma · Veteran Member

Steve Powell wrote:

Full story on Senator graham and his "gas tax".

Get rid of the IRS and get rid of the census burau. Can you imagine how much the government could recoup to pay off the debt if they did this?

If you get rid of the census bureau, who would carry out Article I, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution, which states that such a census is mandatory?

Steve Powell · Guru

Full story on Senator graham and his "gas tax".

Get rid of the IRS and get rid of the census burau. Can you imagine how much the government could recoup to pay off the debt if they did this?

Steve Powell · Guru

Wow, even a geek like me could get that rhyme!! Nice beat!!!

Sigma · Veteran Member

What new gasoline tax? Honestly, if you are going to start making claims, please back them up with something solid. A link to an article or a reference to a newspaper or magazine. Notice the link I just posted was to the Wall Street Journal. Because, as everyone should now, not all sources are created equal.

On a seperate topic, I don’t know if I entirely follow just what a “currency change” is or why we are due for one. Now if we’re talking about the basis of currency, the last major change we had was getting off the Silver standards in 1967 (I assume there was a typo in your post.) But simply because we went off the Gold standard 1933 and the Silver standard in 1967 (which is a difference of 34 years, not 70) does not mean that we are simply “due for a change. It’s true that macroeconomics evolve, and there are multiple schools of thought….but I suppose this really is getting off the topic of a national tax, so I will stop now.
….

Except for this wonderful, wonderful bit of distraction.

-- Edited by Steve Powell on Friday 16th of April 2010 04:03:46 PM

-- Edited by Sigma on Saturday 17th of April 2010 03:24:13 PM

Jibslider · Senior Member

Does it matter if there is a universal currency for North America? Sure it matters when compared US and CA dollars to Mexican pesos, but the US and CA dollars are at par right now, and if you can't remember back to last summer, the CA dollar was worth more than the US dollar.

It already seams the US and CA dollars are the same thing.

Sue Evans · Senior Member

perhaps a myth. We are due for a currency change again. As for the paint regulations, VKO, I do recall something about chipped paint and older homes. I forgot all about that until I read your post. I had just gone over that last week. So many changes!! They/them (the government) has us all in a spin..

vko · Senior Member

This administration is only about them. I really would not be surprised what it will do next. It is time to change it up. Check out the new gasoline tax and the new lead base paint home improvement regulation's. That should make your head spin. That was Obama's baby. Yea he got it passed. I will not waste anymore of my time on this government or trying to explain to homeowner's. You all check it out, because, you as a home owner should know, the contractor should know and Obama's new job's, are the govenment enforcing them. You as homeowner's are as responsible as the Contractor's you hire.

-- Edited by vko on Thursday 15th of April 2010 07:50:35 PM

Sigma · Veteran Member

Sue Evans wrote:

VKO,
Don't bury that tin can to fast unless you fill it with gold and or silver. The currency changes about every 70 years. Remember the silver certificates? We are currently on the Federal Reserve notes. The Euro is going bust. They are talking about the Amero. Spelling may be off on that. Always a discounted exchange rate. In the 1860's when it changed, they added "In God We Trust".

I added the bold text for emphasis

The Amero is a myth, and it always has been.I’m not sure who “they” are, in reference to Sue’s statement that the Amero is under discussion.Now if sometime the Amero comes to fruition and the North American Union goes into effect, well, I’ll be more than happy to eat my words.But I’d bet real money that won’t happen.

-- Edited by Sigma on Thursday 15th of April 2010 07:30:23 PM

Sue Evans · Senior Member

VKO,
Don't bury that tin can to fast unless you fill it with gold and or silver. The currency changes about every 70 years. Remember the silver certificates? We are currently on the Federal Reserve notes. The Euro is going bust. They are talking about the Amero. Spelling may be off on that. Always a discounted exchange rate. In the 1860's when it changed, they added "In God We Trust".

vko · Senior Member

A person will not be able to buy new vehicles, new homes, and will grow a garden and learn to can. As far as medicare/medicade, social security, - I am thinking that the Health Care will take care of that. As far as Social Security, it wasn't really going to be there for me or you. So I think maybe we will have to have our very own Account's, if the Government would quit taxing it to death or for as good as investing is anymore, find a tin can and start to bury it. So much for business, trip's, even the Government may not be able to flip around on our dime. If it comes to just essential's, something will have to change and quick. Each person will decide for themselve's how to not buy something to avoid the VAT. That in itself in my mind will really hurt everyone.

Sigma · Veteran Member

Unfortunately, nothing can go on forever. The United States can't go on spending like it has been over the last 30 years (probably more!) And no, this isn't split down partisan lines. Every administration has overspent and everyone is to blame. So the best of all the bad options available is, I think, a VAT. So unless we are ready to significantly slash or even eliminate Medicare, Medicaid, and/or Social Security, then new revenue sources will need to be found.

It's not a pleasant idea, but we're fast getting to the point where we're running out of options.

vko · Senior Member

National tax or Added Value Tax. Anyone have a thought about this? I am exhausted with all the taxes and trying to figure them out. yawn