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Post Info TOPIC: ELCA
Steve Powell


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RE: ELCA
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stacyslap wrote:

Jibslider- I would not have an abortion for that reason. Just as I would not abandon any of my children I do have if they were gay.

Steve- I can not believe that you think it is a choice to be gay. Did you choose to be straight? Why would anyone make that choice? To put up with ridicule and rude comments. To open yourself up to be disowned by family members. To be ostracized by the religious community. That is ridiculous.
So, are you confident that your kids will not drink alcohol before they are 21 or they won't smoke cigarettes, or swear, or, have premarital sex, or,  (insert undesirable/sinful act) because you tell them it's wrong? As far as I know, having parents with a deep religious faith does not prevent you from being gay. It maybe prevents you from telling your parents and keeping it a secret, but it does not prevent you from being gay. If you have evidence to show otherwise I would love to see it. 


No one chooses to be born straight.  We are naturally born this way.  It's been this way since the very beginning. 

Stacy, people open themselves up to criticism all the time.  Heck, look at me.  Believe it or not, I choose be be a major dork.  I wasn't born this way.  Yet, I have to deal with people laughing at me and making fun of me on a daily basis.  smile.gif 

I am extremely confident my kids will grow up to be prominant members of society.  They get a daily dose of good morals and tough love.  Things probably come a little easier for them than it did for previous generations, which would be the only reason any of my kids would stray.  But for the most part, Heather and I set a good example for our kids and we pay attention to the other kids they are hanging out with.  We eat supper together every day and have a strong relationship with God. 

That being said, I have very little doubt there will be some "party time" when my kids get to college.  We live and learn that way.  All we can do as parents is teach them as much about being responsible while they're young so they will make the right decisions when they become adults.

And as far as my analogy?  A sin is a sin is a sin.  Most homosexuals live in sin without repentence.  Most daily promiscuous party animals live in sin without repententence.  Apples to apples. 

Remember, this thread pertains to why or why not homosexuals should be ordained as pastors.  Not why or why not homosexuals are who they are.

 



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Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. – Philippians 2:3-4
Jimmylikesvikes


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stacyslap wrote:

Jibslider- I would not have an abortion for that reason. Just as I would not abandon any of my children I do have if they were gay.

Steve- I can not believe that you think it is a choice to be gay. Did you choose to be straight? Why would anyone make that choice? To put up with ridicule and rude comments. To open yourself up to be disowned by family members. To be ostracized by the religious community. That is ridiculous.
So, are you confident that your kids will not drink alcohol before they are 21 or they won't smoke cigarettes, or swear, or, have premarital sex, or,  (insert undesirable/sinful act) because you tell them it's wrong? As far as I know, having parents with a deep religious faith does not prevent you from being gay. It maybe prevents you from telling your parents and keeping it a secret, but it does not prevent you from being gay. If you have evidence to show otherwise I would love to see it.


I appreciate everyone's opinion on this subject.  It takes a lot of guts to throw out true feelings on such a sensitive issue as what is labeled in this thread.  But speaking of labels or for a matter of terms, generalization...  I think everyone has the opportunity to have a personal relationship with God.  God does not discriminate from gay or straight, black or white, purple or green smile.gif, evil or good.  God reaches out to whomever seeks him.... and that's what is so GREAT about our God.  I am still amazed as to how forgiving our God is.  That said, churches today are struggling in keeping high attendances throughout the country.   Personally, I feel we need to keep a high standard in our church leadership.  Different denominations have taken their own path as to what standard to follow.   Some denominations encourage you to have to make tough "choices" while other churches don't really encourage anything.    I'm not picking on any specific denomination, however, it's pretty clear as to what churches take the Bible more literally versus others who claim there is interpretation, or other alias scriptures that should be followed based on the context of scripture.   Just my opinion..


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Jim Powell
stacyslap


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Jibslider- I would not have an abortion for that reason. Just as I would not abandon any of my children I do have if they were gay.

Steve- I can not believe that you think it is a choice to be gay. Did you choose to be straight? Why would anyone make that choice? To put up with ridicule and rude comments. To open yourself up to be disowned by family members. To be ostracized by the religious community. That is ridiculous.
So, are you confident that your kids will not drink alcohol before they are 21 or they won't smoke cigarettes, or swear, or, have premarital sex, or,  (insert undesirable/sinful act) because you tell them it's wrong? As far as I know, having parents with a deep religious faith does not prevent you from being gay. It maybe prevents you from telling your parents and keeping it a secret, but it does not prevent you from being gay. If you have evidence to show otherwise I would love to see it. 

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Steve Powell


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Not a chance.  I believe God creates us even before conception.  He has created the wigglies and the eggs prior to us ever doing "youknowwhat" thus creating us prior to conception.  It's in His grand plan!!! smile.gif

Also, it is my belief that we make decisions based on experiences and personal knowledge, thus my children would never choose to be gay since I am teaching them that lifestyle is not acceptable in God's eyes. 

This still doesn't make me a hater!!!!  biggrinbiggrinbiggrin

ps...should any of my children somehow choose to be gay, I will love them unconditionally just as Jesus does and teaches us.

Love, peace and prosperity to all!!!



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Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. – Philippians 2:3-4
Jibslider


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Theoretically, let's say that God creates us all at the moment of conception. If you were able to know (say by some type of genetic testing) that your child was going to be homosexual, would you elect to undergo an abortion??


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stacyslap


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I think using "promiscuous party animals" as  an example ofbeing made that way by God is ridiculous. There is no comparison of the two. Have you ever heard of anybody knowing when they are really little that they are promiscuous party animals?  Apples to oranges Steve. Where is the research that shows that we are meant to all be heterosexual? I don't think it's possible to scientifically prove that. As I asked before, who has the list of sins and which are worse than others? I would venture to guess that all pastors commit sins, why are they allowed to be sinful and still preach?



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Steve Powell


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No, Ryan.   My question was pointing more towards lifestyles.  I was referencing a certain lifestyle outside of the homosexual realm.  Wasn't stereotyping at all.

If God made homosexuals the way they are, he must have made promiscuous party animals the way they are, thus it must be acceptable for promiscuous party animals to be pastors as well.  That was where that questioning was going. 

I have known gay men and women.  Been a little freaked out by a couple of the men...I survived. smile.gif  Heather's cousin is homosexual.  She's an absolute sweetheart and is very, very cool.  I always enjoy visiting with her.  I still struggle with the "God created them that way" theory.  There are abnormalities at birth, I've learned this through Heather's work/studies.  But from all the reading I've done I haven't stumbled on factual evidence that proves this.  I'm always open to more reading and would truly welcome it if you or anyone else had something that would enlighten me more on this.

As far as the Bible goes, I believe there is a very specific blueprint to how we are supposed to live as Christians drawn out through the words of the Bible that came directly from God, Jesus, Paul, Abraham, etc.. regardless of whether they have been altered or not.  The Ten Commandments are the perfect example of rules to live by that we know have NOT been altered.  There are passages in Romans that speak specifically to the homosexual lifestyle.  Paul used very specific words as well.  Leaders are supposed to follow the rules they preach (I know, not always the case but doesn't make it right smile.gif ).  Pastors are supposed to live life as they have been taught and are teaching the rest of us.   

Just to note, my line of questioning was merely so I understood Stacy's thinking and try to prepare her and myself for the debate that was to follow.  I wasn't trying to come off as "Holier than thou" by no means was I trying to stereotype any individuals or groups of people.  You guys know me well enough to realize I'm not a hater.  I'm usually pretty easy going just like you two.  Which is why I felt engaging in this with you and Stacy would make for reasonable discussion without the eye gouging. smile.gif

VKO, I've researched the particulars of many of the different preachings.  I wanted to make sure I knew where I should be.  Funny thing is, I find that I should be somewhere else.  However, there are some conveniences of being where I'm at. smile.gif  I can elaborate but I think that should be another thread. smile.gif

You all have a great weekend!!!



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Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. – Philippians 2:3-4
vko


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Now I will never know what Steve know's about the particular's of Church.  I DO know that is the Beauty of Faith.  I am, myself, trying to pick up my very Strong Belief.  That I hold close to my heart. It is for me to correct.  I have read the Bible.  Can I recite it, No.  Can I tell you Scripture's, No. 

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bohdan


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Hey Steve, Now you know we're friends and you know I'm not one to sugar coat things. That being said I would like to address these questions you asked Stacy.

1. I have never sat down and read the Bible. I have tried however. I have never gotten to the part where it talks about homosexuality. I have heard over the years many people say that the Bible says it is wrong but have never been given scripture verses. I would like to see these.

2.  I would like to believe that everything in the Bible is the word of God. However not everything in the Bible was wriiten at the time of Jesus. It was written many years after his death.

     We have all played the game in school where you tell a person one thing and see how the story changes when it gets to the end of the line. It is never the same. It's not a lie but the story has been embellished a bit. I'm not saying that it's the case with the Bible but to think it may not be a possiblity is naive.

3.  No. a single man that has those morals should not be a pastor nor should a homosexual.  But if I am understanding your question you seem to think that all gay men party all night and sleep with anyone that talks to  them. Thats pretty stereotypical of you. 

     Have you ever known anyone who is gay. Not just talked to someone but actually known them. Its not a choice that they have. It is the way our God made them. No one would choose to be ridiculed on a daily basis. If  a person has the same belief in God as you do is that not enough for you to be tolerant. If that isn't then I am sad for you. I highly dought that he would be preaching on a Sunday about the benifits of being gay.

Good topic though.  This blog should be hopping again in no time!

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Steve Powell


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Those are excellent questions.  My questions to you would be....
1. Do you read the Bible?
2. If you do, do you believe it as the inerrant word of God?
3. Should a single male who parties nightly and sleeps with every woman he can be able to live that way and be a pastor?



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Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. – Philippians 2:3-4
stacyslap


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Steve Powell wrote:

Curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on the recent television news article talking about the happenings with the ELCA and the ordination of homosexuals.  I was truly surprised to see something like this on the local news. 

As a member of an ELCA church, I am struggling with the thought that a portion of our church's tithes is going to a national organization that supports this practice.  I believe we are to love, forgive, and NOT judge.  However, I don't believe those who live this way should lead me or my family in our daily walk.


Thoughts? 


Live their lives what way? As homosexuals? The way God made them? I am sure pastors commit sins every single day. Who gets to decide which sins are worse than others? Who has that power? Why should a believer be denied the oppurtunity to spread God's word? Is the Bible different if it is read by and spoken about by a homosexual? Those are my beginning questions for you. Thanks Steve.

 



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stacyslap


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Steve Powell wrote:

Dang!  Guess I am the thread killer! smile.gif


Watch out! Here comes Debbie Downer!biggrin 



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cantac


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Steve Powell wrote:

Dang!  Guess I am the thread killer! smile.gif


 

No dead thread, sir.  Keep us updated though.  Maybe the homosexuals really infiltrated the top level ELCA vote and that's how the "majority" won?  Not sure when or how we'd know.



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vko


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funny you.  nope.  Hope and Prayer's in your direction tho...



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Steve Powell


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Dang!  Guess I am the thread killer! smile.gif

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Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. – Philippians 2:3-4
Steve Powell


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It'll certainly be interesting how it plays out because I believe our senior pastor leans towards accepting this. 



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Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. – Philippians 2:3-4
vko


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Your church will probably vote to splinter off the ELCA.  Years ago the Church out here splintered off (at that time I think it was ALCU?)  and I was young and cannot remember why.. I just know Mom was horribly upset.  The rest of that I don't understand at all.  Shame on me, I should, and am working on correcting that.

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cantac


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A refreshing new topic. I'm not part of the organization nor am I homosexual, from an outsider's perspective though I also am surprised at this development.

Here is a good article on the story:

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090822/elca-opens-ordination-to-noncelibate-homosexuals/index.html

And check out the comments at the bottom, the comment by "rustevee" is shown as Flagged. It takes a lot of people to flag off a post. However...there is nothing inappropriate about his post! He writes that he's gay and was part of the ELCA vote! So, the angry masses that are against this change flagged his comment off, haha!


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Steve Powell


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Curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on the recent television news article talking about the happenings with the ELCA and the ordination of homosexuals.  I was truly surprised to see something like this on the local news. 

As a member of an ELCA church, I am struggling with the thought that a portion of our church's tithes is going to a national organization that supports this practice.  I believe we are to love, forgive, and NOT judge.  However, I don't believe those who live this way should lead me or my family in our daily walk.


Thoughts? 



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Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. – Philippians 2:3-4
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