Williston, ND Active Issues

vko wrote:

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Thanks for the laugh - you dorks - in the kindest way.

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We have to keep the rank and file entertained...what kind of a forum would it be if we couldn't keep things stirred up.....Stirred, not shaken..or is that for alcoholic drinks????

;o)

Does anyone know or remember who got the 80000.00 Grant.  Maybe the old Williston Herald Papers could help. I can check but it will take me a little bit as I am buried under paper work.  Thanks to anyone who can help and also Thank You all for your input.

I agree, this is a pretty interesting conversation thread.

remember the local refinerys we used to have close to us?

The Flying J refinery which was located east of town on 1804 that got torn down in late 80's early 90's.

The other was the plant that was built at the bottom of trenton hill. it also got torn down in the early to mid 90's. if i do recall being told that that refinery never even go brought up to full speed and was then decommed.

I think it was because of these two refineried that CENEX built the hug building that SABIN is now in. And when the drilling dried up in the mid/late 80's there sat a huge building not even being used

However, with the thinking that the weather is fairly stable in the western part of north compaired to the weather in the gulf states and the other places that seem to effecting the prices. I would seem that the BASIN would be a fairly good location for such refinery.

But I am just throwing out a thought as to why the refineries are located on the GULF/sea or close would be the ease of getting tankers to them for refining.

However, If one was able to get a steady/reliable/constant source out of BAKKEN/LOCAL oil it would seem a good fit to try and get another refinery built. With the advances in technology

I would think this would be a great conversation to have the Dorgan/Conrad/State Reps to see what kind of sparks they could generate through thier contacts/constituencies.

my 2 cents ground together...

Steve Powell wrote:

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Randy, it's because of those refineries being put into danger by mother nature that makes our oil production more profitable.

Who would be responsible for paying for the refinery?

I truly love your "dream the impossible dream" spirit, Randy.  If we had more people like that, the dreams would be more possible.

ps..now you have me whistling the Andy Griffith tune and I can't get rid of it.  Thanks.

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Ouch....well to respond to the first part....I can only say touche'. Got me there.

on to the second part, I have to believe there's gotta be some company which would jump at the chance if given some incentive, whether tax breaks or government funding or somesuch, etc.  I would guess that grant that was given out should cover some aspect of that sort of search and research...still looking forward to getting a copy of that final analysis from somebody somewhere someday...

Funny you should say dream the impossible dream....i get the joke...Gomer (Jim Nabors) was in real life a good singer, and that is one of his keynote songs....

lastly....I am so old I even know the words...take down your fishin pole, and meet me at the fishin hole....we won't catch a thing all day, but we'll while the time away.....    Oh Jeez, I am getting all maudlin now...that was a GOOOD Show...

;o)

Steve Powell wrote:

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Thanks PAR.  It wasn't necessarily the cost of freight that I was asking about although you make a good point.  From what I understand, pure crude has a longer shelf life than the refined product so I guess in my mind the value would lie in the longevity of the shipped product. 

I'm only guessing on this but if my logic serves me correctly, we only use a small portion of the crude that is being drilled, comparatively speaking, since we probably aren't even using what's being produced locally.  So if we have such a large surplus why would we want to refine the remaining crude locally and then ship, if it doesn't have the shelf life that pure crude has?  I think the bottom line is that no matter what, this liquid gold is going to be shipped at some point, so shouldn't it be in a form that would maintain longer?

However, if refining locally keeps the industry alive and well for a long time, by all means, lets get it built!!

Not sure if that question makes sense to you guys, but it sounds right in my mine...however sideways my mind may be.

Great conversation everyone!  Thanks for your great input and for answering my questions.

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Alrighty then.....let say, just for the sake of conversation...the crude we produce here (undeniably plentiful extractible reserves), stays here, is refined as various forms of products, diesel, fuel oil, gasoline and so on which we could ship halfway across the country in various directions (3 out of 4 compass points with Canada being an option of course)) via truck or railcar or pipeline.  The auxilliary facilties and professional support systems that would be injected into our economy as direct result, would fly off the chart.  A refinery would not even have to be in Williston Proper, it could be anywhere in the vicinity, and Williston would by default become the regional center it should rightfully (at least in my mind) be.

Historically, we have not been subject to the extremes of fickleness exhibited by Mother Nature and suffered by the sunbelt and coastal states where the majority of the refineries seem to lie.  Everytime there is a hiccup in one of those areas from this that or the other thing....the price of gasoline goes up astronomically while they shut down and retool or whatever.  There has to be a tremendous market between Williston Basin and only halfway to the east coast, west coast, or southern border. It seems natural to me that we would be a focal point for full-service oil production and refining....only thing we really lack is political clout and population.

What the hey!  If we want to grow this region and encourage other industries and professional people to come here, we gotta have something to offer them.  We need to be thinking outside the box, unless of course we secretly want to keep our "last best place" (my apologies to Montana), a last best place.  If that is what we want, then we need to have the wherewithal to start saying as much and quit giving lip service to, and using terms like "upscale" and "modern", "renovation," "renaissance", and just stick to "Mayberry", "Andy Griffith", "Happy Days", "That 70's Show", etc.

While we could have some compromise, we surely cannot have it both ways.

Therefore, I for one, believe a refinery would be step in the right direction.

Now that the caffeine from the coffee is settling me down, I would like to parrot Steve's comment...it is great to have the conversations we are having free-wheeling but not nasty.....

;o)
R

Please see the attached link showing a map of US refineries including some interesting trivia.  A  couple of nearby states do not have refineries.
http://www.willisms.com/archives/2005/09/trivia_tidbit_o_177.html

I'm puzzled about the question concerning shipping crude oil vs. refined products.  Wouldn't there be more value associated with the final product, say gasoline than the crude oil itself? 

I checked my CRC handbook and it indicates a s.g. of .72 -.76 for gasoline, the web quotes a s.g. of .82 for Bakken crude  (s.g. = specific gravity=density=1.0 for water).  Therefore a tank truck carrying gasoline would weigh less than one carrying crude oil (same volume).  One would think it would be cheaper to pull a load of gasoline down the road than crude oil.  I recently heard from a landman there are 2000 trucks carrying crude each day to refineries.  I would expect a careful analysis including potential market would show a refinery could be built and sustain itself.  Makes much more sense than building an ethanol plant--I just read about a company having several stills went belly up.

Hey Jib;

...always good to hear from you and I knew you would feel obligated to respond to the tree hugger thing. I am only trying to stir up dialog. I will have you know some of my best friends, God love 'em,  are dyed in the wool eco nuts....

You forgot the Cenex Refinery in Laurel, which is actually more or less a suburb of Billings these days, but a nice little town all in all.

The central star in my vision is why in the heck would we be moving oil out of the country (by ship or otherwise), and why in the world, at least in the vision, would we be needing to ship oil in from all those other places we get it from now. What happened to the idea of self sustaining energy?  That alone is reason to think with the large proven reserves we have in the Bakken, not to mention that which lies beneath....we could become a centralized net exporter of crude, natural gas, and refined products to the rest of the country....and that is just the tip of the iceberg....

...and yeah that company was Dakota Catalyst if remember correctly, although I might be wrong on that..they had a number of releases of some gosh awful odors that stung the eyes, and a number of employess who complained of respitatory issues before and after the fact of their employment....I believe it is a lot better now....

;o)
Randy

rwaitman wrote:

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Representatives from the sunbelt and coastal areas always have a leg up on where what (refineries, et al) goes....and then every time there is a mother nature blip in the course of things, such as hurricanes, floods, or earthquakes....look what it does to the economy and price of gas here, in one of the few areas where we very seldom have natural disasters, and a dearth of tree huggers (course we don't have all that many trees either) and environmental police. 

Don't get me wrong, I am not against greenies, I just think a great proportion of them are fanatics....howsomever, I am digressing.... I still think that building a modern refinery in this area would bring industry here from just about every compass point, and there does not seem to be any  logical reason NOT to do so.

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Let me see, there are 2 refineries in Billings (one is owned by ConocoPhillips and the other is owned by ExxonMobil) and then of course there is the Tesoro refinery in Mandan, so there are a decent number of easily accessible refineries for the Bakken oil to be transported to already. My question is what price do these refineries charge for their oil? Would it make sense for another company to come into ND and build a refinery that would be able to compete with these two, or would one of these companies benefit by spending millions of dollars to build another refinery rather than pay the shipping costs?

If in fact the Bakken is going to produce consistent oil for many years to come, it would make sense for another company to build a refinery in ND. I personally would love to see BP come into the state as they have an excellent environmental record when compared with the other oil giants. The downfall to building a refinery right in the middle of the Bakken reserve (i.e. Tioga) is location. It would be expensive to ship refined oil out of northern ND. Yes, there is a 4 lane highway now, which will help the cause, but that is it. The location is not ideal to ship via ground due to the fact that northern ND is pretty damn far from everywhere else in the nation (not a central location). There is absolutely no way to ship via waterway in ND, which will always be the cheapest method of shipping, this is why the coastal areas are so attractive to oil companies, as well as ANY company that has to ship massive amounts of product. You will never see enough water in the upper Missouri River reaches for shipping with the stronghold lobby the southern states have on congress.

Therefore, building a refinery in northern ND would only make sense if the oil company can sell their oil at a competative price to neighboring consumers within the upper midwest.

Mr. Waitman, you are correct that it is difficult to be a tree hugger in an area without many trees, but I do remember a fairly vocal group of Willistonites getting a large company shut down in town due to their poor environmental standards. I can't remember the name of the outfit, just that they operated out of the old Cenex building across from Scenic Sports. 

 

Steve Powell wrote:

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Several thoughts.
1. How much does a refinery cost, who builds it and who pays for it?
2. I'm guessing refining locally would help with road destruction (get it...road construction, road destruction?...tough crowd)
3. Does the cost of a refinery equal/undercut/outweigh long term the shipping costs?

I'm wondering if a refinery this close is truly cost effective.  I understand the theory of not having to pay shipping should bring cost of fuel down but the cost of the refinery has to fit in there somewhere.

Also, EVERYONE has cheaper gas than Williston, even Watford City and they don't have a refinery.  I heard they are 20 cents cheaper per gallon.  You can't tell me it costs that much more to ship a truckload 45 more miles.

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Its the economy Stupid!  ....and I say that in the most complimentary way.   The idea of a refinery here makes sense on so many levels, I don't even know where to begin. 

Your questions should have been answered by the uhhh was it 80,000 grant that was supposed to investigate the concept recently. It is both funny and strange we have heard little or nothing about that for some time.  Steve...you know quite a few people, why don't you shake the bush a little and see what falls out.

Representatives from the sunbelt and coastal areas always have a leg up on where what (refineries, et al) goes....and then every time there is a mother nature blip in the course of things, such as hurricanes, floods, or earthquakes....look what it does to the economy and price of gas here, in one of the few areas where we very seldom have natural disasters, and a dearth of tree huggers (course we don't have all that many trees either) and environmental police. 

Don't get me wrong, I am not against greenies, I just think a great proportion of them are fanatics....howsomever, I am digressing.... I still think that building a modern refinery in this area would bring industry here from just about every compass point, and there does not seem to be any  logical reason NOT to do so.

;o)
R

Canada has a pipe line shipping oil through ND and now are planning on putting in a bigger one.  Also Wyoming has Refinery's and their gas is cheaper than ours.  When you Truck Oil you pay for it to be shipped out and pay more higher Freight to ship it back in.  I know I am simplifing this but it sounded like when they were planning building it  - it was about to take off - and now for the last few months I have not been able to find anything on it.  Thanks all.

A few of my friends have been laid off, looking for work. They say that its slowing down, kinda hard to believe with all the oil that we are sitting on. One said there is just no place to put it, everything's full. Then why did they raise the price of gas again? Wouldn't they want to keep it low to try and sell it faster? I guess I could never understand it.
When the price of oil goes up, gas skyrockets overnight, but when oil drops, it takes a few days for gas to drop as well. Oh well, guess I'm used to it.

Vko...I dont think it will ever happen. Sigh... Drilling is down so, its like here we go again.   My Dad lives in California and works in the oil field and he said its almost to a stand still.  So, I knew what was headed our way.  Best thing to do now is, relax, regroup and make rational decissions on what is really the best thing to do for the whole community.   I don't want to see any city going into hock over a what if situation.  Slow and easy wins the race.