Williston, ND Active Issues

SKM · Senior Member

RE: Active Issues Site.

gundo · Senior Member

Thought you might like this

rwaitman · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

Touche' Jib. Nice poke. You are correct, I am for small government.

From what I have read of this code, it does not force us to follow it as it is not punishable...even though it is written as law. However, it does provide an "etiquette" our forefathers want us all to follow to show respect to our country and our flag.

I will say this, though. I have had many discussions on government control with both Democrat and Republican friends and family and I have changed my mind a little on government control. Unfortunately, the deregulation of the housing and financial sectors that took place during the Clinton administration has caused much of the mess that we are seeing today. Thus, perhaps we have to let the government set regulations in these areas to protect the better good of the country. Although I still think we as individuals need to be smarter than we have been and not go looking for a house that's way more than we can afford.

Again, well played Jib.

I was just thinking the same thing....I always knew Jib was smart...and sly....in his own way.

;o)

Steve Powell · Guru

Touche' Jib. Nice poke. You are correct, I am for small government.

From what I have read of this code, it does not force us to follow it as it is not punishable...even though it is written as law. However, it does provide an "etiquette" our forefathers want us all to follow to show respect to our country and our flag.

I will say this, though. I have had many discussions on government control with both Democrat and Republican friends and family and I have changed my mind a little on government control. Unfortunately, the deregulation of the housing and financial sectors that took place during the Clinton administration has caused much of the mess that we are seeing today. Thus, perhaps we have to let the government set regulations in these areas to protect the better good of the country. Although I still think we as individuals need to be smarter than we have been and not go looking for a house that's way more than we can afford.

Again, well played Jib.

Jibslider · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

According to US Code they are to salute. And they do it all the time.

Title 36 Subtitle 1, Paragraph 301 of the US Code

From http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/36/usc_sec_36_00000301----000-.html
(a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(C)individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

-- Edited by Steve Powell at 11:04, 2009-02-25

Steve, I thought you were all against having more government control. I guess I was mistaken.

brandyri23 · Veteran Member

I just had this conversation with someone the other day...I believe the National Guard (maybe the other forces too) just changed their policy to when a plain clothes soldier is present during the national anthem the may salute it.....before the could only put their hand over their heart....hope this answers your question

Steve Powell · Guru

Jeremy, your question actually brings up another good question.

Do service men and women, when NOT in uniform, salute the flag, put their hand over their hearts, or do nothing at all during the national anthem?

Steve Powell · Guru

According to US Code they are to salute. And they do it all the time.

Title 36 Subtitle 1, Paragraph 301 of the US Code

From http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/36/usc_sec_36_00000301----000-.html

(a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1) when the flag is displayed—

(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;

(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(C)individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

-- Edited by Steve Powell at 11:04, 2009-02-25

Willistonrecguy · Veteran Member

DO service men and women put their hand over thier heart or do they salute the flag during the National Anthem?

Mommyof2 · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

Mommyof2 wrote:

vko wrote:

I personally do not believe in Flag burning - (unless it is done in the proper way.) Like Randy says - do it on your own property and not in front of me. It's your freedom of speech, although I don't have a clue what the flag burners are saying, and quite frankly really don't care what they have to say. People are responsible for their own actions - and with actions are reactions that you have to live with - without complaint.

And I would have to ask, WHY do I have to do it on my own property and away from you? Isn't is my right? my freedom? Do I really need to make sure that certain people aren't present when I'm going to do something that "some" people might not approve?

Disclaimer: I would never personally burn a flag, I'm just using this for argument sake. its what i do....LOL

MO2, you devil, you. Or are you just an advocate?

BOTH

nd.citizen · Senior Member

Well Said!

Those who burn the flag do so knowing full well how much it will upset people. In fact, that's exactly why they do it. If no one cared, they wouldn't bother.

So, in my opinion, they have no imagination if they cannot find a way to make their point and draw attention to their issues without burning an American Flag!

Saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad!!!!!

SKM · Senior Member

I am sitting laughing at the image Ricky put in my mind!! Little old man with a cane beating the heck out of some protester. OMG too funny! And Randy I remember those Zubas you wore!! You were HOT!! The zebra pattern sticks out most in my mind. LOL

Yep seem some want all our rights taken away except for the freedom of speech. But just to play devils advocate...if they do take away the freedom of speech then we can only say what the government deems correct. I dont want any of our freedoms taken from us. Not even the freedom of speech. Now dont get me wrong I wish some wouldn't speak like ...Barney Frank whom I call the "Liberal Lisperer". We just need to need to keep fighting for our rights too. Were intitled just as much as the liberals are. Dang I love this message board! I love reading the banter and the great discussions. smile

vko · Senior Member

I just see one right after another disappearing in front of our eye's. People want to take your guns, well that's not working, now restrict the amunition. They don't want you to smoke, because they feel it is hurting them, even if you smoke on your own property, It's only respectful not to smoke around a non smoker. They want to burn the flag and want you to pay attention to what they are protesting, and don't understand that if you don't, you really don't care what they are screaming about. (Because your not respectful about what's important to them. ) People want to raise the tax on fast foods because people don't really don't know they are over weight. People are fighting about the little things that most people have the decenty (sp) to respect and we are losing our most important rights that America was built on. cry

rickywaitman · Veteran Member

Thought I needed to clarify...I was in a bit of a hurry earlier. I absolutely believe there is a time to protest!!! In a responsible way.

Thanks for the perspective Jib. I was thinking after I posted earlier that it is really a matter of perspective. When I see someone burning a flag, in my mind, I see it like a bunch of radicals over in Iran or Venezuela ect... who hate America and what it represents. So when you say people want to burn a flag in protest, even if they're American, that's where my mind goes.

If someone has the attitude of hating America, they need to leave. There is no reason for them to be living here. If it's as you put it, their way of expressing their opposition to actions by the government, I guess it's not as much of a slap in the face. I don't see how burning the flag relays that message (dissapointed in the govt) there has to be better avenues but I understand the need to express their dissaproval.

In my eyes, burning an American flag seems to carry the attitude that you don't like America, not that you don't like the governments actions. Our flag represents the country, ideals and freedoms, not who the president is or what the government actions are.

If I dissapprove of what a certain denomination of Christianity is doing, I wouldn't burn the bible. I'd protest that denomination somehow. Not protest Christianity... Anyways, thanks for the perspective. It's a big difference opposing what the govt's doing than opposing America in general!

rickywaitman · Veteran Member

Not all people who would get an abortion would be offended my my previous scenario either. Not all vets or Americans would be offended by a flag burning. Because you don't know the minds of who you are trying to "impact" by an act of protest, makes it reason enough not to do it in my mind.

I wouldn't physically attack anyone over a flag burning. Even the thought of it makes me laugh. I picture some 80 year old with a cane "assaulting". I should have clarified....

rwaitman · Senior Member

Jibslider wrote:

I wouldn't, however, wear a cowboy shirt or Zubaz that look like the American flag... now that's just disrespectful.

Hey Hey Hey

....Jib....that was harsh....I wore Zubas back in the day, although not the flag ones, mine were zebras....and....I had the mullet....you probably remember both since you were likely running around my yard with the other snot nosed brats (including mine) about that time.....

On the other stuff....I see your point, but I think out of respect for the flag and what it represents, burning it should be off-limits, and stomping on it, and spitting on it.....I like to think I would have enough self restraint and self control to not whomp someone who was, but have no doubt, I would admonish them severely.... is someone wants to make a point, let em do it some other way....

;o)
R

Steve Powell · Guru

Jibslider wrote:

Steve, I wasn't exactly trying to quote Dee Snyder or Frank Zappa, but I was referencing Tipper Gore's time and time attempt to censor the artists of our nation. I do agree its a great day when you can quote Dee Snyder though.

Now, why would anybody hold a protest or any other event in their back yard away from the media and the spot light? How would burning a flag in a private enclosed environment get people's attention to the downfalls of whatever the protest is about? It goes completely against the purpose of the protest or flag burning in this instance.

If burning a flag in protest is too powerfull of a statement for most of you to handle, where do you draw the line? Would you all brutally attack an individual (at the Wal-Mart) for flying a flag upside down? Would you all brutally attack an individual (at the Wal-Mart) for wearing a shirt or pants with the stars and stripes? Attacking an individual is MUCH different than destroying a symbol. If I made a cardboard cut-out of an individual, a symbol, and shot it with a gun it is not called murder... even though it does make a powerful statement that envokes emotion, much like burning the flag.

I do not understand the "vets who's served his whole life defending the freedoms of US citizens being traumatized" sentiment. I know plenty of vets, including my father who served the ideals of their country and would attend a protest if they feel there is an injustice that needs to be recognized. War veterans are not the only patriotic individuals that walk the soil of this country, and I would be so bold to say that everyday citizens are just as patriotic and proud of their country. If I feel there is an injustice in this country, or something that needs attention I will make my voice heard on my own time, without an ajoining income... that's what is so great about our country, ordinary citizens don't need to be afraid if they speak their minds or protest the actions of the government... well, atleast before the Patriot Act was signed.

Burning a flag is something I've never done, and I've never attended a protest where the flag was burnt, but I wouldn't hesitate to make that statement if I feel freedoms were being hindered. The injustice would have to be a great injustice for me to do so, and even if it were illegal or even if someone buying Chinese made products at Wal-Mart was going to attack me, I would still do it... because I do know what it is like in many different countries, and I feel very strongly about keeping the wonderful liberties we have in this country.

I wouldn't, however, wear a cowboy shirt or Zubaz that look like the American flag... now that's just disrespectful.

lol!! At least not without a mullet. biggrin

Jibslider · Senior Member

Steve, I wasn't exactly trying to quote Dee Snyder or Frank Zappa, but I was referencing Tipper Gore's time and time attempt to censor the artists of our nation. I do agree its a great day when you can quote Dee Snyder though. biggrin

Now, why would anybody hold a protest or any other event in their back yard away from the media and the spot light? How would burning a flag in a private enclosed environment get people's attention to the downfalls of whatever the protest is about? It goes completely against the purpose of the protest or flag burning in this instance.

If burning a flag in protest is too powerfull of a statement for most of you to handle, where do you draw the line? Would you all brutally attack an individual (at the Wal-Mart) for flying a flag upside down? Would you all brutally attack an individual (at the Wal-Mart) for wearing a shirt or pants with the stars and stripes? Attacking an individual is MUCH different than destroying a symbol. If I made a cardboard cut-out of an individual, a symbol, and shot it with a gun it is not called murder... even though it does make a powerful statement that envokes emotion, much like burning the flag.

I do not understand the "vets who's served his whole life defending the freedoms of US citizens being traumatized" sentiment. I know plenty of vets, including my father who served the ideals of their country and would attend a protest if they feel there is an injustice that needs to be recognized. War veterans are not the only patriotic individuals that walk the soil of this country, and I would be so bold to say that everyday citizens are just as patriotic and proud of their country. If I feel there is an injustice in this country, or something that needs attention I will make my voice heard on my own time, without an ajoining income... that's what is so great about our country, ordinary citizens don't need to be afraid if they speak their minds or protest the actions of the government... well, atleast before the Patriot Act was signed.

Burning a flag is something I've never done, and I've never attended a protest where the flag was burnt, but I wouldn't hesitate to make that statement if I feel freedoms were being hindered. The injustice would have to be a great injustice for me to do so, and even if it were illegal or even if someone buying Chinese made products at Wal-Mart was going to attack me, I would still do it... because I do know what it is like in many different countries, and I feel very strongly about keeping the wonderful liberties we have in this country.

I wouldn't, however, wear a cowboy shirt or Zubaz that look like the American flag... now that's just disrespectful. disbelief

rickywaitman · Veteran Member

Here's a scenario... A 16 year old girl gets pregnant. After much painful deliberation; heart renching, agonizing deliberation; she decides she's going to get an abortion. She knows that abortion is killing a child, but she also knows she can't raise a baby... She comes to the conclusion that she'll have an abortion even knowing that because of her own conscience she'll agonize over it for the rest of her life. Every day she'll wake up thinking about that... On the way to get the procedure she's sick to her stomach because she thinks what she's doing is wrong, she walks up to the door and there is a guy standing with a knife or a hanger over a baby on the sidewalk... fake blood everywhere but very realistic looking.

That "protest" is within the scope of free speech. Does that make it right? That would traumatize that girl forever. To me it's no different with flag burning. I could really care less. If I see some people burning a flag, I just chalk it up to a slight case of mental retardation or ignorance. Maybe these people have never been to a different country. Maybe they don't realize how great America is whether it's a democrat dominant govt or a republican dominant govt. BUT, if a vet who's served his whole life defending the "freedoms" of US citizens sees someone burning a flag, he may be traumatized by it...

Really it's not illegal but should be done with discretion. If someone takes offense because your burning a flag in front of Wal-Mart, hopefully the judge is lenient with the assault charges after you got knocked out... Or, maybe Wal-Mart should kick you off the premises???

vko · Senior Member

Because it is MY Freedom to not have to PUT up with YOUR Freedom... biggrin

Steve Powell · Guru

Mommyof2 wrote:

vko wrote:

I personally do not believe in Flag burning - (unless it is done in the proper way.) Like Randy says - do it on your own property and not in front of me. It's your freedom of speech, although I don't have a clue what the flag burners are saying, and quite frankly really don't care what they have to say. People are responsible for their own actions - and with actions are reactions that you have to live with - without complaint.

And I would have to ask, WHY do I have to do it on my own property and away from you? Isn't is my right? my freedom? Do I really need to make sure that certain people aren't present when I'm going to do something that "some" people might not approve?

Disclaimer: I would never personally burn a flag, I'm just using this for argument sake. its what i do....LOL

MO2, you devil, you. wink Or are you just an advocate? biggrin

Steve Powell · Guru

Jibslider wrote:

nd.citizen wrote:

There are limitations to the freedom of speech. In my opinion, anyone who burns a flag, does so knowing that it will "tear at the heartstrings" of veterans, their families, and other patriots. Knowing this prior to the act tells me they had the intent to harm.

READ LIMITATIONS TO THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Limitations_on_freedom_of_speech

"Limitations to freedom of speech"? Sounds exactly like the propaganda Roberto Gonzalez and Tipper Gore have spewed from thier mouths time and time again. BS censorship if you ask me.

Hang on a second now, Jib. Don't get carried away. The First Amendment wasn't created without caveats. There certainly are limitations. If there weren't I could yell bomb as loud as I wanted in an airport. There HAS to be limitations or a kid could stand up in the middle of class and call the teacher every 4 letter slang word in the book.

The ACLU has shoved First Amendment issues down our throats wrongfully too long and dang it...WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT....ANYMOOOOORRRE. Sorry, it's the only way I could reference the Dee Snider interview I believe you're referencing. Just to be sure, the ACLU is one of those organizations that I'm 50/50 on.

Excellent question. Exactly what are flag burners expressing when they do this?

Mommyof2 · Senior Member

vko wrote:

I personally do not believe in Flag burning - (unless it is done in the proper way.) Like Randy says - do it on your own property and not in front of me. It's your freedom of speech, although I don't have a clue what the flag burners are saying, and quite frankly really don't care what they have to say. People are responsible for their own actions - and with actions are reactions that you have to live with - without complaint.

And I would have to ask, WHY do I have to do it on my own property and away from you? Isn't is my right? my freedom? Do I really need to make sure that certain people aren't present when I'm going to do something that "some" people might not approve?

Disclaimer: I would never personally burn a flag, I'm just using this for argument sake. its what i do....LOL

vko · Senior Member

I personally do not believe in Flag burning - (unless it is done in the proper way.) Like Randy says - do it on your own property and not in front of me. It's your freedom of speech, although I don't have a clue what the flag burners are saying, and quite frankly really don't care what they have to say. People are responsible for their own actions - and with actions are reactions that you have to live with - without complaint.

Jibslider · Senior Member

nd.citizen wrote:

There are limitations to the freedom of speech. In my opinion, anyone who burns a flag, does so knowing that it will "tear at the heartstrings" of veterans, their families, and other patriots. Knowing this prior to the act tells me they had the intent to harm.

READ LIMITATIONS TO THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Limitations_on_freedom_of_speech

"Limitations to freedom of speech"? Sounds exactly like the propaganda Roberto Gonzalez and Tipper Gore have spewed from thier mouths time and time again. BS censorship if you ask me.

Mommyof2 · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

I'll tell ya this...I needed to hear that, MO2. It made me really think about how I truly feel. And the honest to God truth is....

Why in the world would anybody in their right mind EVER want an administration to fail? How ridiculous is that? Yeah, sure, I want the administration to fail so the economy fails and puts my career, home, family, and everything else at risk. Does this really make sense? Just because I don't agree with the route we are taking means I want failure? I can point to things in the Bush admin that I didn't agree 100 percent with including his stimulus spending. Sure I liked the check I got in the mail but I never felt like it was mine. That money came from China or somewhere like that and only put our country further into debt. But I still didn't wish failure because of it. I can, however, hope that I am wrong (which would certainly not be the first time, nor will it be the last) on this issue and will not be afraid to admit it if I am.

So, MO2, I disagree with your disagreement.

Thats a very good point, and I appreciate it. Being one of the only people (or so i feel) in williston that voted (happily, might i add) for Obama, I feel that many many people wish for his failure. I'm one to argue a LOT and hate to admit I didn't know how to even BEGIN to approach a conversation when someone had that attitude. I will take your words and pass them on.

Yeah, sure, I want the administration to fail so the economy fails and puts my career, home, family, and everything else at risk. Does this really make sense? Just because I don't agree with the route we are taking means I want failure?

Very well put. Thank You smile

Steve Powell · Guru

I'll tell ya this...I needed to hear that, MO2. It made me really think about how I truly feel. And the honest to God truth is....

Why in the world would anybody in their right mind EVER want an administration to fail? How ridiculous is that? Yeah, sure, I want the administration to fail so the economy fails and puts my career, home, family, and everything else at risk. Does this really make sense? Just because I don't agree with the route we are taking means I want failure? I can point to things in the Bush admin that I didn't agree 100 percent with including his stimulus spending. Sure I liked the check I got in the mail but I never felt like it was mine. That money came from China or somewhere like that and only put our country further into debt. But I still didn't wish failure because of it. I can, however, hope that I am wrong (which would certainly not be the first time, nor will it be the last) on this issue and will not be afraid to admit it if I am.

So, MO2, I disagree with your disagreement. biggrin biggrin biggrin

Mommyof2 · Senior Member

Again, after all of that, I have to re-iterate that I don't wish this administration failure. I don't like where our country is currently and really want to see a turn-around.

A quote from you, that I have to disagree with. You DO wish to see the administration fail. For some strange reason, it would make anyone who didn't vote for Obama, very happy to see him fail. Its a sad sad world :( I hear it at work a LOT. Working at Pnuttz (probably the most ANTI-OBAMA people in the WORLD hang out there) I hear people wish failure upon him every day. Why would someone do that? I just don't understand.

Mommyof2 · Senior Member

Is it too late to join in the conversation of flag burning? Too bad...I'm going too :)

Is it acceptable? Well, it depends on what your defination of acceptable is. Do I think it should be punishable by law? NO! Our "flag stands for freedom". Isn't it taking away somebodys freedom to not "allow" them to do something that is not putting harm on anyone else? Now, Would I PERSONALY do it? Nope. Sure wouldn't! Its my "personal" belief that it is wrong. However, I would not take this "freedom" away from somebody else. Its their right. Just like its MY right to chose NOT too.

rwaitman · Senior Member

Jibslider wrote:

Steve Powell wrote:

...Can I ask? Do think flag burning is acceptable?

I'll give a very quick and simple answer here just in passing to get this started... yes. Flag burning is a powerful statement, and I feel it should not be punished by law. Freedom of speech is a sacred right in this country.

Well Jib:

I am old and set in my ways, ...so then you will probably NOT want to burn your flag in front of me since it would interfere with my inalienable right, bestowed upon me by the Declaration of Independence, to enjoy the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness.

Please burn it in your own back yard or basement, or in conjunction with a tree hugging ceremony somewhere in Colorado or way out west.

;o)
R

-- Edited by rwaitman at 16:25, 2009-02-15

nd.citizen · Senior Member

There are limitations to the freedom of speech. In my opinion, anyone who burns a flag, does so knowing that it will "tear at the heartstrings" of veterans, their families, and other patriots. Knowing this prior to the act tells me they had the intent to harm.

READ LIMITATIONS TO THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech#Limitations_on_freedom_of_speech

Steve Powell · Guru

I should have added "socially".

Thanks Jib. I agree 100 percent with your First Amendment comment. I don't feel it should be punishable by law but can a lawsuit be brought on people for doing it? Consider the following.

Speaking of the First Amendment, what did the first amendment really amend?

I found some interesting reading that talks about situations like flag burning. Is flag burning really a 1st Amendment Right? Here are 3 questions to ask from the following site.

http://www.krusch.com/real/under.html

1) Is the directive a law?
2) Did Congress make the law?
3) Does the law abridge the freedom of speech or press?

Answers:
1. Defamation of the flag is defined as a no-no by US Code so it is a law.
2. Congress wrote the Code so Yes.
3. I'll let you guys figure this one out.

Perhaps this is why the flag burning is such a controversial issue.

Great point, Jib. I love thought provoking discussions like this.

Jibslider · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

...Can I ask? Do think flag burning is acceptable?

I'll give a very quick and simple answer here just in passing to get this started... yes. Flag burning is a powerful statement, and I feel it should not be punished by law. Freedom of speech is a sacred right in this country.

Steve Powell · Guru

Mommyof2 wrote:

Steve Powell wrote:

This is another topic for another day but if you do a google search on "snopes bias" or "snopes slant" you'll find some interesting stuff.

Excellent question though regarding "modern customs". "Modern Customs" versus US Code? Patriotism is a very sensitive issue. Many men and woman have died since our countries inception. I would think NOT respecting the flag ALL THE TIME would have those men and women turning over in their graves. After all, it is this flag that they represented when they fought and died.

Perhaps we have allowed our younger generations too much slack in regards to this. This slack has made this "acceptable". I realize there are crazy laws out there that we don't pay any attention to anymore, but when it comes to the flag and our country I think we need to maintain this law and uphold our respect for what it represents.

Good question though.

So simply because I do not put my hand over my heart, I do not respect what it represents? Because I fly my flag at night with no light on it, I don't respect my country?

Better yet, because I don't put my hand over my heart during the national anthem, I don't respect the men and women who have died me for my rights? I, rightly, disagree. My hand and where it is placed during the national anthem, has NOTHING to do with my respect.

wow...edited to fix major spelling errors...sorry..

-- Edited by Mommyof2 at 11:41, 2009-02-14

Well MO2, we'll have to agree to disagree here. Of course none of this is law that is punishable. But this flag does represent all those men and woman. We should treat our flag with the same respect our military does. We've simply gotten lazy in how we show respect for it. It's what they would do if the National Anthem were being played. Ask yourself that question. Would (insert family member down the family tree that may have perished in battle) have put his/her right hand over his/her heart? I guarantee that answer would be yes. But then again the last couple of generations have gone their own way on far more issues than just the flag.

There's no US Code that says you have to fly your flag with a light on. However, it is written that you should only fly your flag during sunrise to sunset unless properly illuminated. It's also one thing for ordinary Joe citizen like you and me to choose to honor this or not...it's another thing for the Commander in Chief of the country to choose whether or not to do it. He is the ultimate Patriot role model. He should be setting the example for the rest of us. Apparently our current Commander in Chief doesn't agree with me.

Again, after all of that, I have to re-iterate that I don't wish this administration failure. I don't like where our country is currently and really want to see a turn-around.

Can I ask? Do think flag burning is acceptable?

rwaitman · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

This is another topic for another day but if you do a google search on "snopes bias" or "snopes slant" you'll find some interesting stuff.

Excellent question though regarding "modern customs". "Modern Customs" versus US Code? Patriotism is a very sensitive issue. Many men and woman have died since our countries inception. I would think NOT respecting the flag ALL THE TIME would have those men and women turning over in their graves. After all, it is this flag that they represented when they fought and died.

Perhaps we have allowed our younger generations too much slack in regards to this. This slack has made this "acceptable". I realize there are crazy laws out there that we don't pay any attention to anymore, but when it comes to the flag and our country I think we need to maintain this law and uphold our respect for what it represents.

Good question though.

Great give and take.... Steve and MO2, and no matter how you cut it .....people are starting to do their homework on the topics we are discussing, not just answering all willy nilly over the place....good exercise for the mind ain't it.....not to mention all the adrenaline, testosterone and hormones.....what a cathartic experience...

;o)

Mommyof2 · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

This is another topic for another day but if you do a google search on "snopes bias" or "snopes slant" you'll find some interesting stuff.

Excellent question though regarding "modern customs". "Modern Customs" versus US Code? Patriotism is a very sensitive issue. Many men and woman have died since our countries inception. I would think NOT respecting the flag ALL THE TIME would have those men and women turning over in their graves. After all, it is this flag that they represented when they fought and died.

Perhaps we have allowed our younger generations too much slack in regards to this. This slack has made this "acceptable". I realize there are crazy laws out there that we don't pay any attention to anymore, but when it comes to the flag and our country I think we need to maintain this law and uphold our respect for what it represents.

Good question though.

So simply because I do not put my hand over my heart, I do not respect what it represents? Because I fly my flag at night with no light on it, I don't respect my country?

Better yet, because I don't put my hand over my heart during the national anthem, I don't respect the men and women who have died me for my rights? I, rightly, disagree. My hand and where it is placed during the national anthem, has NOTHING to do with my respect.

wow...edited to fix major spelling errors...sorry..

-- Edited by Mommyof2 at 11:41, 2009-02-14

Steve Powell · Guru

This is another topic for another day but if you do a google search on "snopes bias" or "snopes slant" you'll find some interesting stuff.

Excellent question though regarding "modern customs". "Modern Customs" versus US Code? Patriotism is a very sensitive issue. Many men and woman have died since our countries inception. I would think NOT respecting the flag ALL THE TIME would have those men and women turning over in their graves. After all, it is this flag that they represented when they fought and died.

Perhaps we have allowed our younger generations too much slack in regards to this. This slack has made this "acceptable". I realize there are crazy laws out there that we don't pay any attention to anymore, but when it comes to the flag and our country I think we need to maintain this law and uphold our respect for what it represents.

Good question though.

Mommyof2 · Senior Member

I'll just leave you with this.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

I will also read up on the Bill you are talking about before I say anything about something that I have not read. Do you have more information on it ? I would love to read it.

I, too, have been reading about flag etiquette now. Its interesting. It has been said that "modern customs" does not require a hand over the heart. Is that a good excuse not to do it ? I don't know.....

Steve Powell · Guru

Well, to be honest with you MO2, his "Presidential stuff" is starting to worry me as well. He has already passed the "allow tax money to be spent on abortions" bill...or at least re-reversed it...as expectd. And this spendulus is questionable as well. Don't get me wrong, there's probably money that will help in this bill but the way he and the Senate and House Democrats sent this bill through at light speed is a little troublesome. It could very well come back to haunt them.

This bill was over 1100 pages long. They had VERY LITTLE time to read through this thing. Senate Democrats have admitted that they didn't even read through the whole thing. They half-blindly passed it through. Doesn't that scare you at all? Pelosi's "We won the election" and "We wrote this bill" comments don't sound very non-partisan to me.

I personally want to see things work and get out of this "crisis" that's been created by government and media scare mongers. But I certainly don't want the government shoving stuff down my throat.

I too will no longer place my hat over my heart any more. It will be properly tucked under my left shoulder. Some interesting reading out there on that kind of stuff in the Code.

Have a great weekend MO2!

Mommyof2 · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

Title 36 Subtitle 1, Paragraph 301 of the US Code

From http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/36/usc_sec_36_00000301----000-.html
(a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

Perhaps someone should notify the person known as the President of the United States who should be the Patriot of Patriots of the United States that he should place his hand over his heart EVEREY TIME the National Anthem is played. And all of you should be doing it too. And anyone you see NOT doing should be told it's part of the US Code and they SHOULD be doing it too.

Interesting, from what I'm reading US Code is actual law. I wonder if this is a punishable crime? From http://uscode.house.gov/

The Office of the Law Revision Counsel prepares and publishes the United States Code, which is a consolidation and codification by subject matter of the general and permanent laws of the United States.

ps...aren't attorneys like Obama supposed to know the law? And if so...can anyone tell me then why he only does it "some of the time"?

-- Edited by Steve Powell at 10:36, 2009-02-14

Ok. I'll give it to you. Your SUPPOSED to do it. (and I will from now on..thank you smile

) But seriously, why is that big of a deal? If not putting his hand over his heart during the national anthem is the worst thing he does in the next 4 years, he's already doing better than Clinton AND Bush biggrin

You keep worrying about his hand and his heart, and let him worry about the rest of the "presidential" stuff.

Steve Powell · Guru

Title 36 Subtitle 1, Paragraph 301 of the US Code

From http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/36/usc_sec_36_00000301----000-.html

(a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1) when the flag is displayed—

(A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;

(B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

Perhaps someone should notify the person known as the President of the United States who should be the Patriot of Patriots of the United States that he should place his hand over his heart EVEREY TIME the National Anthem is played. And all of you should be doing it too. And anyone you see NOT doing should be told it's part of the US Code and they SHOULD be doing it too.

Interesting, from what I'm reading US Code is actual law. I wonder if this is a punishable crime? biggrin

From http://uscode.house.gov/

The Office of the Law Revision Counsel prepares and publishes the United States Code, which is a consolidation and codification by subject matter of the general and permanent laws of the United States.

ps...aren't attorneys like Obama supposed to know the law? And if so...can anyone tell me then why he only does it "some of the time"?

-- Edited by Steve Powell at 10:36, 2009-02-14

Mommyof2 · Senior Member

rwaitman wrote:

Steve Powell wrote:

Actually MO2, it is true that he sometimes does NOT put his hand over his heart. His party has even made this statement. However, it is not true that he does this out of lack of respect...so they say. Not quite sure, if you're a true patriot, why sometimes you would and sometimes you wouldn't. But I think President Obama has something a little mixed up.

From http://fightthesmears.com/articles/7/patriot
Obama said the photo was taken during the singing of the national anthem, not the pledge.
“My grandfather taught me how to say the Pledge of Allegiance when I was 2," Obama said, his annoyance obvious. “During the Pledge of Allegiance you put your hand over your heart. During the national anthem you sing."

Wha? Ummm...his Grandfather was a WWII vet and forgot to mention that you place your hand over your heart for both.

I don't really question his patriotism. I just question his intentions.

Ooops....I thought this was supposed to continue on a new thread.

....exactly Steve....it is not the wearing of the pin, and it is not the lack of sometimes holding the hand over the heart. It is the acts of political expediency in determining when to wear it and when to not, and when to hold the hand over the heart and when to not....

I have no doubt that Pres Obama is a loyal American....to think otherwise would be such a great leap into fantasy that it boggles the mind, but I think he has developed the ability to cater to the audience at hand, into a fine art.

To be fair, the cons and the libs are both guilty of that sort of game, but the liberal leaning politicos seem to have the market cornered for spin doctoring and role playing and their abilities at gamesmanship are honed to a fine point. My comments were playing to that, more than trying to place the importance of his actions on a level with his ability or patriotism.

Good Grief......look at how previous conservative politicians have been and continue to be attacked.....we conservatives should get a little leeway when we do the same thing....

;o)
R

-- Edited by rwaitman at 08:00, 2009-02-14

Your very correct. He DID state that. Its the fact that people REPEATEDLY say that he "REFUSES" to put his hand over his heart. and he REFUSES to wear a flag pin. Its just not true. I bow down to your research :) Not many people do it. You said it best when you said "he doesn't do it out of lack of respect (minus the "so to say" part confuse

). Honestly, I dont usually put my hand over my heart for the national anthem either. As with a LOT of people. Look around next time your at a function where the anthem is played.

rwaitman · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

Actually MO2, it is true that he sometimes does NOT put his hand over his heart. His party has even made this statement. However, it is not true that he does this out of lack of respect...so they say. Not quite sure, if you're a true patriot, why sometimes you would and sometimes you wouldn't. But I think President Obama has something a little mixed up.

From http://fightthesmears.com/articles/7/patriot
Obama said the photo was taken during the singing of the national anthem, not the pledge.
“My grandfather taught me how to say the Pledge of Allegiance when I was 2," Obama said, his annoyance obvious. “During the Pledge of Allegiance you put your hand over your heart. During the national anthem you sing."

Wha? Ummm...his Grandfather was a WWII vet and forgot to mention that you place your hand over your heart for both.

I don't really question his patriotism. I just question his intentions.

Ooops....I thought this was supposed to continue on a new thread.

....exactly Steve....it is not the wearing of the pin, and it is not the lack of sometimes holding the hand over the heart. It is the acts of political expediency in determining when to wear it and when to not, and when to hold the hand over the heart and when to not....

I have no doubt that Pres Obama is a loyal American....to think otherwise would be such a great leap into fantasy that it boggles the mind, but I think he has developed the ability to cater to the audience at hand, into a fine art.

To be fair, the cons and the libs are both guilty of that sort of game, but the liberal leaning politicos seem to have the market cornered for spin doctoring and role playing and their abilities at gamesmanship are honed to a fine point. My comments were playing to that, more than trying to place the importance of his actions on a level with his ability or patriotism.

Good Grief......look at how previous conservative politicians have been and continue to be attacked.....we conservatives should get a little leeway when we do the same thing....

;o)
R

-- Edited by rwaitman at 08:00, 2009-02-14

vko · Senior Member

That's ok Steve - that's what happens when your dang neer middle aged. biggrin

Steve Powell · Guru

Actually MO2, it is true that he sometimes does NOT put his hand over his heart. His party has even made this statement. However, it is not true that he does this out of lack of respect...so they say. Not quite sure, if you're a true patriot, why sometimes you would and sometimes you wouldn't. But I think President Obama has something a little mixed up.

From http://fightthesmears.com/articles/7/patriot

Obama said the photo was taken during the singing of the national anthem, not the pledge.

“My grandfather taught me how to say the Pledge of Allegiance when I was 2," Obama said, his annoyance obvious. “During the Pledge of Allegiance you put your hand over your heart. During the national anthem you sing."

Wha? Ummm...his Grandfather was a WWII vet and forgot to mention that you place your hand over your heart for both.

I don't really question his patriotism. I just question his intentions. biggrin

Ooops....I thought this was supposed to continue on a new thread.

rwaitman · Senior Member

Mommyof2 wrote:

PS ....and you forgot to throw in the one where President Obama would not cover his heart with his hand to show respect for the flag, in addition to not wearing the pin. I still have trouble with that one. I believe he does both now that he is sitting in the catbird seat. How is that for catering to the votes, and then tossing them aside? That man is GOOD!

-- Edited by rwaitman at 20:20, 2009-02-11

Maybe he forgot to throw that in....because its simply not true......

Which part? The part about not wearing a lapel pin, or not holding his hand over his heart to show respect to the flag....Well....I guess I was mistaken....I saw pictures of both instances posted all over the internet....I guess they must of photo-shopped em... Sorry, I defer to your knowledge...

;o)
R

Mommyof2 · Senior Member

rwaitman wrote:

Jibslider wrote:

rwaitman wrote:

Bill Clinton, himself, on both 60 Minutes and in a Time magazine interview, defended Bush on the invasion of Iraq. He then went on to dismiss the notion that the war was about protecting petroleum of other business interests. He said, talking about Saddam Hussein, "What if he fails to comply (with terms of defeat), and we fail to act?" George Bush, apparently to Mr. Larsen's great dismay, showed the strength of conviction to do so, and should be applauded for that.

Of course President Clinton defended Bush on the invasion of Iraq. ANYBODY who didn't defend President Bush on the invasion of Iraq or ANYTHING Bush did immediately post 09/11 was labeled "un-American" or a "terrorist" by the media, administration, and general population of the U.S.!! Look at the outrage that was shown when elected officials and presidential candidates refused to wear an American flag lapel pin. "You're anti-American Mr. Obama because you won't wear the stars and stripes on your suit pin."

Anybody who didn't defend Bush's actions immediately post 09/11 risked accumulating these "anti-American" labels, and risked their constituates votes in up-coming elections. In President Clinton's case, he risked pusing votes away from his wife's upcoming presidential bid.

My opinion of the war is that President Bush was running on an invasion high. He had just retaliated on terrorist groups in Aphganistan which boosted his approval rating. His attacks failed to destroy/capture the supposed mastermind of the 09/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden, and Mr. Bush needed to accomplish a successful removal of a "bad guy", so he went after Saddam Husein.

Well Jib....obviously you have your opinion, and I have mine.... but I will stick with the contention that Bill Clinton, for once anyway, was actually, and simply, just speaking the truth as he saw it...but I appreciate you trying... the dialogue is still good, and I think we both like a challenge. By the way, how was your cross country drive?
;o)
R
PS ....and you forgot to throw in the one where President Obama would not cover his heart with his hand to show respect for the flag, in addition to not wearing the pin. I still have trouble with that one. I believe he does both now that he is sitting in the catbird seat. How is that for catering to the votes, and then tossing them aside? That man is GOOD!

-- Edited by rwaitman at 20:20, 2009-02-11

Maybe he forgot to throw that in....because its simply not true......

rwaitman · Senior Member

Jibslider wrote:

I'm actually sitting in my parent's house right now! I don't know what the deal is with this state hating liberal minded people... you guys even have the weather on your side trying to keep us out.

7 hours to drive from Devils Lake to Williston yesterday... good grief.

Ohhh.....that's harsh.....it's not the sinner we hate, it's the sin....

the weather is conservative too.....gives new meaning to that old saw... "you can't go home again", eh?

All joking aside...the weather has been pretty nasty lately, good that you made it in safely.
;o)
R

Steve Powell · Guru

Glad your travels brought you home safely. Hopefully you'll be able to enjoy your time.

SKM · Senior Member

Jib, glad you made it safely. smile

And I truly don't hate liberals, I just don't understand their logic. biggrin