Williston, ND Active Issues

rickywaitman · Veteran Member

RE: Covering costs of "COYOTES" sports

Steve Powell · Guru

Hey Ramsey! Don't thank me. I've asked the city to put my cost of this website on our taxes. biggrin

Steve Powell · Guru

Dang it, Dave! You beat me to the "transportation" punch! Nice job!

Steve Powell · Guru

Jeremy, I don't have to ask if the school district received less money than last year...I'm pretty sure that's what you mean. As a result of lowering their mills they received far less than what they would have received had they NOT lowered their mills. In turn, this lowered my tax burden. That's exactly how that's supposed to work. However, because the economy is doing so well right now, they still received at least what they had last year and with the money they received from the state they are now money ahead. They are actually going to pay for transportation for sports next year INCLUDING hockey as a result.

So there IS a Coyote booster club? OK...lemme get this straight. We pay taxes that help pay for these sports. Two of these sports are self funded via ticket sales and concessions...basketball and I presume football...so they don't need my tax money for those. We also have a Coyote booster club that helps raise money for these activities. Plus the parents pay for the kids to play AND they pay for travel and hotel?

Doesn't sound like the actual Williston Coyotes (non-club sport Coyotes) are getting much money either other than the money the boosters and the parents give them. And it doesn't sound like hockey or baseball can complain about the basketball and football programs since those sports are self funded.

Am I missing something here?

Slette · Veteran Member

Up until this year we recieve zero dollars from District 1. Next year they are going to pay for transportation. That is a good start, now if they would take on coaches saleries ...... that would help a whole lot!!!!!!

ranramsey · Veteran Member

Looks like we finally found our 'hot button'....I am one of the guilty lurkers who have enjoyed reading the posts....

It's nice to have this venue to discuss things like this, I have learned alot more on this subject today than I ever thought I would. Can you imagine how long this conversation would taken on the Herald guestbook!

Thanks Steve, Jimmy, Jeremy, Randy and Dave (and Mica too) for the interesting content.

-- Edited by ranramsey at 16:53, 2008-04-15

rwaitman · Senior Member

Slette wrote:

Being on the board of W.B.S.C. I can tell you that at the end of the season we recieve a 40,000.00 bill from WHS. Thats what it takes to run a program that is a represenative of the school. They also have in control of hiring our coaching staff at the clubs expence. How would any of us like it if someone came to our house with a MDU bill for thier house and you had to pay it and not have any say. I know Randy never wants to hear this but THAT IS NOT FAIR

Ouch! That is not fair....

;o)

Mica · Veteran Member

So what do you get from WHS for the $40K/year? I mean other than them choosing your coach.

Slette · Veteran Member

Being on the board of W.B.S.C. I can tell you that at the end of the season we recieve a 40,000.00 bill from WHS. Thats what it takes to run a program that is a represenative of the school. They also have in control of hiring our coaching staff at the clubs expence. How would any of us like it if someone came to our house with a MDU bill for thier house and you had to pay it and not have any say. I know Randy never wants to hear this but THAT IS NOT FAIR

rwaitman · Senior Member

To tell the truth Jeremy, I have been out of the loop for a several years now, so it might well be a very different ball game (pun intended). I am glad that you are so free wheeling with the conversation though because we need more of it.

There is no question in my mind that the people posting here without exception actually do want to do good things in the community, and we are having spirited conversations with no animosity...at least none that I can see...

thanks for your spin on it.

;o)

Willistonrecguy · Veteran Member

Jimmy

"David, that's intersting.... 5/200. And in Rochester, park and recreation would take care of that job. I don't know if I would want to do that job either. That's the primary difference. Parents pay for some coaching, personal equipment, traveling fees, etc. while the city supports the required infrastructure. Money is raised when needed for any extras.. perhaps a special tournament, helping out families that cannot afford the expenses, etc"

You are kind of contradicting yourself, you want parents to support there kids programs, but you would not want to clean the building your club owns. You think a tax supported entity should do it for you.

Jimmy find out what is going on here, because it sound the same as rochester, except your school does support all fo there sports.

With that I Tag out.

SKM · Senior Member

Whoa...wait....did Bruce comment? I didn't see that. This debate has been very good. Very interesting indeed. Reading all of this makes me kind of thankfull that my kids don't enjoy sports although deep down I really wish they were into something! Now if Guitar Hero becomes a sport I think my kids would be state champs. LOL. Oh by the way, I like the way Jim and Steve think on the tax issue.

P.S. Go Redskins! smile

Willistonrecguy · Veteran Member

Randy-

To answer your questions...
I think you would be pleasently surprised to see to see our baseball budget and how much is billed to baseball vs parks and rec.

Funding of traveling teams. Need to ask specific questions?

And as far as who works for who baseball vs wpr. It is WPR's Program. Baseball Committee raises $200,000 for this program. WPR would be stupid not to take imput from a group that raises that much money. But when it comes down to it I really believe that it is a WPR Program, thus it is Darin's program and he is going to have final decision. Again that being said it would be dumb not to listen to a group if guys who have raised as much money and put so much of thier life into the program.

The Williston School District will never completly pay for everything. They have the help of the Coyote Booster club, kids/parents have to pay $55 per activity to participate, each team does its own fundraising, and kids have to pay for there own hotels when ever they are out of town for school activities.

BOTTOM LINE
After the Hockey/Baseball/Boys Swimming state tournament is over, the Williston High School Kids, Going by the name Williston Coyotes, come Home to WIlliston High School. Then the School send a bill to the Baseball Committee, Hockey Club and Swimmers to pay for their sport.

Steve, Ask the school board member you work with if they recieved any less money. I know they dropped their mills, but did they collect less tax money. And do not forget about that three million they got from their settlement with the state.

Steve Powell · Guru

This debate has been fun and all, but what I really wanna know is...why didn't I get a "good point" from Bruce like Dave did? That's not fair!!!

Steve Powell · Guru

Illegal use of sarcasm...using the wrong smiley...on Dave....10 yard penalty...repeat the down.

Sorry, just getting myself in football mode for the upcoming NFL draft.

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

$2.00/Hour? Any benefits?

Slette · Veteran Member

Hey Steve, Sorry to say but we couldnt hire someone for 1.00 or 2.00 dollars. We struggle to pay every bill we recieve. But that makes us appreciate it even more

Mica · Veteran Member

Hey now this is getting fun! ha!

Steve Powell · Guru

Now wait, I know the "woman scorned" thing is no fun for us guys, but to make a guy apologize twice? That's just mean.

Mica · Veteran Member

No problem Jim - we've been having these discussions at school too so my skin may just be a little thin.

Slette · Veteran Member

Parks and Rec do an awesome job at the Raymond center with their ice. Another difference for our club is we own our building. Or at least are paying for it . That makes the situation a little different for us and District 1.

Steve Powell · Guru

Dave, you guys run on a $200,000 or so budget. Can't you hire someone for $100 or $200 or so to do that for you?

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

Again.. Sorry Mica. I was not trying to misquote you. I actually did misread your post. My appologies. I totally understand what you meant now. I hate when people misquote me as well.

rwaitman · Senior Member

Mica wrote:

Interesting because I never said that "most people on this message board dont volunteer or provide funds" I simply asked how many of us actually do volunteer.

Statements like that are one reason that you have "lurkers" who dont want to respond to any of these message boards.

Micah..please keep posting. Steve has a pretty tight rein on this site, and there will be no nasty posting; it will remain civil and only accidental misunderstandings will happen, not deliberate attempts to run roughshod over someone.

About the best Mr. Evil Wannabes can get away with is a little hidden or not so hidden sarcasm, but it is a dad gum good way to practice your usage of English Comp. I don't know if there are any really old Coyotes here, but I went two years at WHS before my Dad got transferred out, and I had Eileen Livdahl...she really got me started on Comp...always liked that subject and she was a good teacher....so if you are skilled, you can say all kinds of good stuff and a lot of people have no clue....but anyway.... post away...

R
;o)

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

David, that's intersting.... 5/200. And in Rochester, park and recreation would take care of that job. I don't know if I would want to do that job either. That's the primary difference. Parents pay for some coaching, personal equipment, traveling fees, etc. while the city supports the required infrastructure. Money is raised when needed for any extras.. perhaps a special tournament, helping out families that cannot afford the expenses, etc.

Mica · Veteran Member

Its super frustrating to say the least. And it always seems that the kids that are the biggest pain in the a$$ have the parents that dont do anything and complain the most - GO FIGURE!!

Slette · Veteran Member

Hey Mica, Just so you know. We have about 200 kids involved in hockey in Williston. So that is a ton of parents. When we sent out our mass e-mail as to when we were going to take out our ice for the year and clean the floors. Out of all those possible people we had 5 show up. And we were all board members. Dont get me wrong I'm not complaining, I just wanted you to know, I know where your coming from.

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

Sorry Mica. I was not trying to misquote you. I actually did misread your post. My appologies.

Steve Powell · Guru

CONGRATULATIONS EVERYONE!!! We just hit our first muti-page thread!!! WOOHOO!!!

First of all, I'd like to thank the academy, and I'd like to thank all of those who supported me and participated in this thread...you know who you are. biggrin

Steve Powell · Guru

That's the spirit, Mica...hit him where it...WAIT!!! doh

That hurt!!!

Mica · Veteran Member

Guess I'll have to REALLY cheer on the packers now!! biggrin

Mica · Veteran Member

I dont mind defending my position. What I do mind is having my words misconstrued.

Steve Powell · Guru

Keep in mind, Mica, you have to be a little thick skinned too to put your neck out. Your comments are appreciated as are everyone elses. You have the right to defend your comments so if you feel you've been wronged...let him have it!! biggrin

Steve Powell · Guru

I wish I could take the credit for that one, Dave. But when you work with a school board member that info is easy to find. Want any city info? My manager is a city commissioner! biggrin

Steve Powell · Guru

Thanks Mica, you bring up an excellent point. When we as parents allow a government entity to take over these programs completely, we eventually become mere bystanders. We get in our comfort zone of just sitting back and watching our kids grow up rather than being actively involved. This is just one more reason why the Hockey club has been so successful.

Jeremy has been doing a very good job of making changes to his programs by getting the parents involved as volunteers. I've been told by several parents that this past years youth basketball program went very well with the parents being coaches. You watch, as a result, you'll see growth in that program.

Everywhere you see parents ivolved in the program, you see success. Like Jim said, it's the trend.

Mica · Veteran Member

Interesting because I never said that "most people on this message board dont volunteer or provide funds" I simply asked how many of us actually do volunteer.

Statements like that are one reason that you have "lurkers" who dont want to respond to any of these message boards.

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

I don't remember anybody saying sports should be funded by kids selling stuff. Although that can be useful in helping some families that cannot afford to be in a sport due to the price of equipment, traveling, etc. Let's move away from generalizations here. How can anyone argue families playing a larger part in sport programs is a bad thing? That's really the main point. Simply having the city provide all expenses dumbs down community involvement. The more responsibility you give to the city, the less the community is involved. It's as simple as that. When you expect the city to fund everything, eventually people complain because things are not done their way.... . and I agree, that really ticks me off as well. But that happens when less people from the community are involved. That's quite a statement to say that most people on this message board doesn't get involved by volunteering or providing funds. Perhaps you live in one of those communities that has been dumbed down, but myself and most of my friends are coaches, or have coached in the past, or have been part of supporting sports in some significant way.

Oh, one more thing. In Rochester, MN, you ARE forced to provide funding and it is not just an interesting dynamic but a model that has been very succesful. Whether you directly get involved by volunteering or providing cash. Either way, it opens your eyes to where the money is going. I for one, I don't think it's just me, wants to know where my money is going when I pull the cash directly out of my wallet as opposed to seeing some tax statement at the end of the year

.

-- Edited by Jimmylikesvikes at 14:15, 2008-04-15

-- Edited by Jimmylikesvikes at 14:28, 2008-04-15

Slette · Veteran Member

Who says you dont learn something new everyday. Thanks for the info Steve!!!

Steve Powell · Guru

The school district cut 25 mills, 5 of which the Parks and Rec are working to recover. Had they not, our property taxes would have gone up a significant amount more.

rwaitman · Senior Member

I think the discontinuation of levying of mils for Recreation by the School District was based primarily upon the idea that since the School District did not distribute the monies by line item, and had no say in how it was utilized, they felt it would be more appropriate to let the end user (WPR) gather it, and then be accountable for how it was disbursed.

Sounds pretty fair to me. In this day and age...the old adage "but that's how we have always done it"...does not hold nearly as much water as it did once upon a time.

There are many many "doubting thomas's out there these days....

R

Mica · Veteran Member

Wow you guys definitely are entertaining THIS lurker!

From another small town perspective (Lolo has about 3,000 people) it is an issue that plagues every school district no matter where you are, how big the town/city is, and who lives there. It is a constant struggle for the school here to find money to even fill the craters in the parking lot let alone pay for Joe Blow to kick a field goal. For me, with 4 children in the school district, I am more than willing to pay an increase in taxes to pay for extracurricular activities IF I KNOW THAT IS WHERE MY MONEY IS GOING. Do you think that the option of having my 6 year old going door to door selling cookie dough or mom having to sell cookie dough to my coworkers is a better idea? I think not. My 6 year old should be more worried about running, playing and enjoying being young, not raising money so he can hopefully wrestle. It would be an interesting dynamic to see what would happen if EVERY parent that has a child in extracurricular activities was in some way required to volunteer in some way - doesnt even have to be financially - for their child to be involved. How many of us that are having this conversation and have children in school and activities ARE involved in some way? As an active member at my kids' school, we have a ton of parents that do a whole lotta complaining and not alot of volunteering.

rwaitman · Senior Member

Willistonrecguy wrote:

Whoops yourself Randy....

The baseball program has been part of the recreation department since before the baseball committee began 50 years ago. The Baseball Committee is a fundraising, working, and advisory committee to the recreation staff. Baseball with the help of the Baseball committee is and has always been a Recreation program.

Now please send anybody that questions why we support baseball and not hockey or any other activity my way.

Hey Jeremy:

Not trying to pick a fight, just happy this is now a little more public. Two questions...

Firstly, why does Boys Baseball get financial support, drawing down what I believe to be an inordinate and disproportionate percentage of the available WPR funds, including funding for traveling teams from an entity whose mission statement is to "provide recreational opportunities for everyone", and other traveling teams do not? As a former Board Member, I understand budgeting for different programs is necessary and desirable, including recreational baseball (ie T-Ball and intramural programs), but how much of the maintenance and operations is covered by other programs and manpower that do not reflect a true picture of the actual costs accrued by Boys Baseball? (sorry that was actually two questions, please forgive me.

Secondly, given your perspective, is Parks and Recreation a subordinate entity to Boys Baseball, or is Boys Baseball an subordinate entity to WPR?

Both of my sons are products of a very successful and vibrant Boys Baseball Program, from T-Ball through Legion, and I have always been a supporter of it; and will continue to be so. I have always had an idealistical difference of opinion of what role BB does and should play in the bigger picture of WPR; so please do not see this as some attack. I am just happy to see it being discussed openly. We spent many long hours during my 12 years on the board debating, and discussing this very issue, and for the most part the general public did not participate...this is a great opportunity.

Please keep it coming... thanks, and I appreciate you sharing your perspectives.

;o)
Randy

Willistonrecguy · Veteran Member

Dave That is what i thought. The school dropped the 5 mils that they have collected for recreation for like 50 years. Then that money went directly to the rec council. I think that is all they dropped. So really they did not drop anything of their own money.

Slette · Veteran Member

As far as I have heard the only mills that School District 1 has dropped are 5 mills that they are not going to levy for Parks and Rec. It makes them look good to the people of Williston but does nothing as far as them dropping their amount of mills. evileye

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

OK, now I'm really steamed. Tiddlewinks takes a lot of skill. I was the Tiddlewinks champ in Williston until that one tournament and .. uh.. well.. I can't even talk about it since I get so upset. Sometimes I can't even sleep at nights from that loss. How dare you say tiddlewinks isn't important! I'm deeply offended! You take that back!

Oh and by the way, the comment "they are the COYOTES" was so inspiring I was chanting the COYOTES cheer!

-- Edited by Jimmylikesvikes at 13:38, 2008-04-15

Willistonrecguy · Veteran Member

I am done with the tax discussion as i do not know and will lose this arguement.

Again I do not know, what did the school cut?

Finally I think Baseball/Hockey/Swimming are more substancil then tiddlewinks?

As a matter of fact I think that Williston is First and Formost a Baseball Town and Second a Hockey Town.

So no I will not agree with you if it is a high school sport it sould be paid by the high school, totally, no We need booster clubs and other fundraising.

But right now when Brad Westphal has to miss school to coach a baseball game Boys Baseball has to pay for his substatute teacher.

IT IS A SCHOOL SPORT

THEY ARE CALLED THE WILLISTON COYOTES

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

Jeremy,

OK, I'll be nicer if you become a Vikings fan!
OK, you really think this makes sense?:
===============================================
OIL BOOM = More People Moving to Town

More people in town = Shortage of Housing

Shortage of Housing = Increased value of land

INcreased value of land = Higher property taxes
================================================

Cities are not profit centers. They don't increase taxes just because there's more money available. But I like your thinking.. it's so capitalistic if we were running a business instead of running a city

. So if our property value goes down after the boom dies, do we get a refund of the overpayment since all property values went down? Property tax in terms of property value is done by how your individual property compares to other properties in your local area. It's not done as a whole just due to all property values going up.

And yes, all high school sports in Rochester are greatly funded by parents. And trust me when I tell you it can be painful. I'm not saying all sports are evenly funded, as they are not. But the costs are greatly offset from the city by having parents involved (usually from the pocketbook) and of course the coaches who volunteer are also awesome. In many cases, the coaches get significant "Thank You" checks from the parents. Another great example in Rochster is volleyball. There is the normal high school league but then there are club leagues not associated with the high school at all. The club leagues are very competitive but they can also be very expensive. But considering the traveling and gym time and once you really think about it, it makes sense why it's so expensive. It makes you appreciate the sport more once you have to throw out $$$ to support it

. Actually, the club leagues now or more popular than the high school leagues and it's a state wide supported organization. My point here is that this is becoming the trend. And from what I've seen, it's working. It makes sense.. the city is supporting people/infrastructure, and the people are supporting the city directly rather than through increased taxes.

Oh, and by the way, I think you're alright Jeremy. I don't care what Steve says.

I have a ton of Packerfan neighbors and friends, and as long as I can throw rocks at them every now and then, I don't mind them

Steve Powell · Guru

Jeremy,

You're opening new arguments through your arguments. When a city is booming, there are more people to pay for the infrastructure, thus LESS TAXES. Mills across the board should be adjusted in order that we don't see the increases that we have. Just because my property value has increased? That's a load of bunk that some people in Williston by into. The school district lowered theirs to try and even things out but for some reason I'm still paying 3 percent more than I was last year.

When the city grows, the infrastructure grows but so do the number of people to pay for it. Things should, at the very least, stay even keal. It's when the people leave and the infrastructure remains the same, this is when our taxes are supposed to go up. Fewer people to suppport the infrastructure, thus more taxes. RECESSION DEFINED.

My taxes should pay for essentials. If we want our kids to learn teamwork, sportsmanship, etc...it shouldn't all have to come out of my tax dollars.

What if I met you halfway on this and said let's take the current amount of tax money used in the budget to continue paying for activities. Let's not raise it or lower it. But let's let the basketweavers, the tiddleywinkers, and everyone else in on this current budget. Anything not covered from there on....they're on their own. Would you agree to that?

North Dakota has become an over taxed state period and some of us conservatives are a little frustrated by it. 900 plus million surplus? Sounds like overtaxation to me.

Willistonrecguy · Veteran Member

Whoops yourself Randy....

The baseball program has been part of the recreation department since before the baseball committee began 50 years ago. The Baseball Committee is a fundraising, working, and advisory committee to the recreation staff. Baseball with the help of the Baseball committee is and has always been a Recreation program.

Hockey is not a recreation program. Hockey has had the oppertunity more then once to be a recreation program but they have declined because they have wanted to keep their financial atonomy. That being said you ask they hockey club whether or not they have our support. On average we charge about half as much as the rest of the state does for ice time. We lose money by having the compressors on.

Now please send anybody that questions why we support baseball and not hockey or any other activity my way.

Jimmy Likes Vikes - STOP DISAGREEING WITH ME BECAUSE I AM A PACKER FAN. I totally agree with you how and why activities get started. But could you please give me an example where the "Powell Plan" is in use. By "Powell Plan" I mean ALL SCHOOL ACTIVITES ARE CLUB SPORTS. How many of the Rochester (I think you said you were from Rochester) high school activities are totally club supported.

You are talking about getting sports implemented- Hockey, baseball, and boys swimming are implemented, and one can argue with the exception of boys basketball and girls tennis (we have a ton of girls out for tennis) they are three of the most successful programs in Williston.

OIL BOOM = More People Moving to Town

More people in town = Shortage of Housing

Shortage of Housing = Increased value of land

INcreased value of land = Higher property taxes

Oh yeah, and don't for get that oil jobs are high paying jobs, which causes a trickle down effect and more people have more money to spend on more expensive housing.

I am not going to claim to be a tax or finacial expert, but the above seems to make sense to me.

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

Jeremy.. I have to disagree with you. Many cities have changed the way sports are funded. It's usually more of a grass roots effort to get a sport implemented. This same grass roots organization is also responsible for funding and getting the city's support. The organization usually acts similar to city board members in terms of getting the city's support to handle any infrastucture/equipment needs. So the sports are not totally funded by the private organization as the city usually provides some equipment/park needs. This usually works out much better than simply enabling the city to decide how each sport is funded. It's actually pretty cool to see the parents and community to get involved in this manner. And although I understand what you are saying about volunteers/coaches and their time commitment, etc. I also know the feeling of being part of something like that is also very rewarding. Williston's hockey program is a perfect example as to how sports are usually funded now days. Personal equipment, tournaments, etc. are all funded by the organization while enabling park and recreation to do what they do best. This really does help bring the community together and keeps the city's cost down.

Now on a personal note, I have to admit I used to be reluctant to support some of my kid's desire to play sports like lacrosse, soccer, etc. as they weren't on my list as the sports that really have much visibility. However, after seeing my kids have those options and grow to really love those sports, I really think it's great to have as many options as possible available. And those options would never exist if we didn't have the community involved in making it happen. The city certainly wouldn't fund such a sport like lacrosse. But the infrastucture can easily support it due to the number of parks available. By enabling much of the funding to come from each sport, more money is available for the infrastructure needed to support the sport. Correct me if I'm wrong Steve, but I don't think you were talking about a "pay for what you use" program.

Also, since when does an oil boom or any kind of boom have to require an increase in property taxes. In theory, as the population increases, more property tax revenue is available. I'm sure glad our local government doesn't use the "increased housing"/"population boom" excuse to increase our property taxes in Rochester. I've heard that "oil boom property tax" reasoning so many times and it's rediculous. The problem comes into play when the city can't handle the infrastructure after the boom dies. But if the city charges for land (no incentives) and does a good job managing the growth, there is no need to increase property tax. I can debate this issue all day. Let's do a test. Let's put a headline in the Herald that says, Williston plans on increasing property tax due to "oil boom". I wonder what kind of feedback that would get. Now I CAN understand an increase in property tax due to infrastucture problems unrelated to the boom but using the "oil boom" as the reason to increase property tax...... nah... I will never buy that one. So if our property value goes down after the boom dies, do we get a refund of the overpayment since all property values went down? Property tax related to property value is done by how your individual property compares to other properties in your local area.

-- Edited by Jimmylikesvikes at 11:03, 2008-04-15

-- Edited by Jimmylikesvikes at 11:15, 2008-04-15