Williston, ND Active Issues

vko · Senior Member

RE: Health Care - General Topic

Jibslider · Senior Member

Jimmylikesvikes wrote:
Hi VKO.. I'm not very knowledgeable about the laws placed on the health care industry since I'm not in that business. Perhaps IBM's Watson can answer any specific questions you have regarding health care inducstry laws . Last chance to watch Jeapardy today and watch IBM's artifical intelligence combined with computer Power beat out the best Jeapardy players around.

I was not aware of any oaths required by doctors but I'm not aware of a lot of things required by doctors. My only point is that there are other ways to resolve our increasing health care costs without socializing our entire system. Last I checked our government wasn't doing a good job managing things. The government should keep doing what they are good at, and that is providing laws/controls that aid in keeping health care available to everyone. The key word there is aid.

I'm just cuirous as to the other ways you mention to control increasing health care costs?

I do agree with you that there are other was to control the cost of health care, besides socialized medicine, but the key is how to implement those changes. Like I've said before, where do you start?

Do you target doctors that are performing more testing then previously? Do you target the engineers who are coming up with the new technology to make diagnosing and treating more precise? Do you target the manufacturers of the instruments who are charging a premium for the new technology? Wait, maybe you target the doctors again who are performing the tests on the new technology to pay off the instrument?

Then again, do you target insurance companies who are requiring their contracted doctors to perform a certain amount of procedures to bill their patients insurance, even if the doctor feels the full amount of required testing is excessive? Yes, maybe we should target the insurance companies, since many require failure of 2-3 different treatments before they will cover the treatment the doctor wanted to start with anyway?

Wait a minute, why start there? Maybe we should target the ease of bringing your doctor to court in a malpractice suit? All of that extra testing being done by doctors to cover their ass just in case something goes wrong, you want to have everything documented.

No, no... obviously we start by targeting medical schools. How much should you really have to pay for an education anyway, and why do they keep raising tuition every year by thousands of dollars? How much of a profit should these schools be making anyway? Doctors need to pay back that tuition somehow? What about those undergraduate degrees, how much of a profit does NDSU and UND need to make anyway?

How does changing all of the above trickle down to the health care consumer? How long would the above changes actually make health care more financially accessible to you and I?

Health care, what a bitch.

*Sorry it took so long to respond, I was away all week attending continuing education courses.

Jibslider · Senior Member

vko wrote:

Jibslider wrote:

The only reason the new health care law should be repealed is to make all health care publicly available to any citizen of the USA. (yes, period).

If you do have issues with the current law as it stands, please state your specific reasons here and we will chat.

What are you actually looking for Jibslider. Do you want a-b-c or 1-2-3? I don't know what the current law as it stands, is. Can you tell me? In an a-b -c or 1-2-3 order. How can we ask you question's - when you only give your own view point. Tell me exactly what the new law is, then we will discuss it.

The law is available online for you to read (good luck).

vko · Senior Member

Thanks anyway - I know I am frustrated with this. I saw that jeapardy thing walking by the news.. Thanks for the chuckle. smile

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

vko wrote:

This post is for Jimmylikesvikes: Do you know about the actual laws of Health Care? Are they in place? From an Employer's point of View? I could spend a whole day of looking - and I am not hiring a lawyer and accountant to do this. I am sick of their bills. I really do not think anyone really - ACTUALLY- knows. Please tell me if I am wrong. I feel we are just blowing in the wind - when they continue to argue. And then as a business owner will get stung.

Hi VKO.. I'm not very knowledgeable about the laws placed on the health care industry since I'm not in that business. Perhaps IBM's Watson can answer any specific questions you have regarding health care inducstry laws

. Last chance to watch Jeapardy today and watch IBM's artifical intelligence combined with computer Power beat out the best Jeapardy players around.

I was not aware of any oaths required by doctors but I'm not aware of a lot of things required by doctors. My only point is that there are other ways to resolve our increasing health care costs without socializing our entire system. Last I checked our government wasn't doing a good job managing things. The government should keep doing what they are good at, and that is providing laws/controls that aid in keeping health care available to everyone. The key word there is aid.

vko · Senior Member

This post is for Jimmylikesvikes: Do you know about the actual laws of Health Care? Are they in place? From an Employer's point of View? I could spend a whole day of looking - and I am not hiring a lawyer and accountant to do this. I am sick of their bills. I really do not think anyone really - ACTUALLY- knows. Please tell me if I am wrong. I feel we are just blowing in the wind - when they continue to argue. And then as a business owner will get stung.

vko · Senior Member

Jibslider wrote:

The only reason the new health care law should be repealed is to make all health care publicly available to any citizen of the USA. (yes, period).

If you do have issues with the current law as it stands, please state your specific reasons here and we will chat.

What are you actually looking for Jibslider. Do you want a-b-c or 1-2-3? I don't know what the current law as it stands, is. Can you tell me? In an a-b -c or 1-2-3 order. How can we ask you question's - when you only give your own view point. Tell me exactly what the new law is, then we will discuss it.

Steve Powell · Guru

I need to take a step back. What does "government run" healthcare look like? Because the government already does "run" some of it. (Medicare, Medicaid, Medical Treatment Act of 1986, etc..)

With "governement run" healthcare, are more people being given healthcare by government funding? What I hear when someone talks about government and healthcare, are the words, "healthcare for everyone". Well, we all know about the 45 plus million people that can't afford insurance the way it is. As it stands, the government is forcing everyone, including those that can't afford it, to purchase health insurance. Is this part of what "goverment run" health care looks like? If it is, is it really addressing the problem? Or is it basically government forcing people to do something they financially can't afford to do?

I understand the Medical Emergency act from 1986. But all that has done is caused the hospitals to treat the financial losses in the ER as "charity". Hospitals, especially in suburban areas, are getting kicked in the shorts because of this act. Not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying it's a financial monkey on their backs.

So considering the things that government has had in place for the past 30 plus years in regards to "government run" healthcare, all of which are part of todays problem, what is different in your "government run" healthcare system that will prevent similar financial distresses from occuring down the road? Jib?

Jibslider · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

Steve Powell wrote:

Jibslider wrote:

Steve Powell wrote:
Question, which version of the oath did you have to recite?

Jib, in order to uphold your "oath" you must be free to practice WITH YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT. Government run healthcare prevents you from practicing in this manner. If the government is going to guarantee free healthcare it has to control the cost. In order to control the cost it's going to tell you how you do your job.

Most doctors today are ignoring many of the guidelines set forth by the government. But only because they aren't being enforced yet. Once they become law, you'll pay fines if you don't do it exactly how they tell you. Which goes against your "oath" of providing your services with your best judgement.

I need you to define "publicly available". Because as of today, emergency services are publicly available to any US citizen as well as any illegal citizen.

I certainly hope you aren't referring to all procedures covered under insurance because this would put our financial crisis over the edge. We might as well just hand the keys over to China if that's what your proposing.
Here is a snippet of the oath I had to recite: "I will place the treatment of those who seek my care above personal gain and strive to see that none shall lack for proper care."

I am referring to all procedured covered under insurance. I'm talking about government run healthcare. How does that correlate with "handing the keys over to China" as you put it?

How does the goverment pay for the care given to those that cannot afford it?

ps...you're quoting the Doctor of Optometry Oath. Should eyecare be covered by the government too?

Yes.

vko · Senior Member

My question's:

Are you a business owner, if so, where do you find all the actual laws in place? I found it once and they told me they do not have ALL the information in place. Where do I go?

As a business owner, are the law's, in place?

I keep looking and looking and I can only find one agruement after another.

Do I have to hire another person to just take over Healthcare - more expense - more benefit's.

For a small business owner, it does get overwhelming. And sometime's just not worth it, you are just running against the wind. Unless you are really okay with cheating. Which I am not.

And sometimes you just feel your babysitting your employee's, because their hand is always out and you owe them.

So Jib, from your medical point of view, since we are just laborer's (sp) for our community in our own specialty, and you are a doctor, tell me about our side of the story, and how to actually care for our employee's and the other's who are not our employee's. (like the rest of the United States.) We, also, provide housing for our employee's. What happen's when we say, "to heck with it?" It seems it will never quit. New law after new law- our government has wasted more money on themselve's than any citizen's - both sides included. And we are not Canada. Nor do I want to be. I may be wrong, but I am thinking you are an employee.

vko · Senior Member

It seems like what they say will happen in this Health Care Reform and what will ACTUALLY happen might be two different things. And I don't like paying into something starting now, when it won't go into actual effect until 2012.

I may be wrong about this, I don't know.

And dang the hospitals have good sleeping medication. smile

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

If you listen closely to Glenn Becks argument with the caller, there are many good points made regarding our existing publicly available health care. It must be very difficult to watch a family member suffer with health issues. And to make things worst, it's disheartening to see a person go broke after a long career of working hard just to see the nest-egg go towards medical bills. But at what point do we draw the line in covering everyone's medical expenses? And how do we know what health care system works and what health care system doesn't work? Unfortunately, depending on who is doing the study, the results vary drastically. There are a tremendous amount of issues that factor into determining a health care system as to being successful.

The one thing I find in common is that poorer people typically like socialized health care while wealthier people do not. France for example, 13% of every person's income goes toward medical care. And everyone gets the same medical treatment. Does this make the system better? Typically, wealthy folks will say it's not fair as they are paying far more than poorer people. And in many cases you'll hear higher income people traveling to other countries for potentially life saving treatment even though they are paying for most of the health care system. Of course France is a country just as many other countries in Europe which have a much higher wealth redistribution scale than America. One could argue that at least the person was able to travel and afford to get necessary treatment. But is that the type of sytem we want? A system where the best clinics and hospitals reside in another country?

So is there a way to improve our health care system without socializing our health care system? I believe there is a lot of room for improvement. The government does play a role in controlling good business practices. So why doesn't it continue to set more regulations for the health care industry. The primary success in countries using socialized health care is due to lowering health care costs by eliminating unnecessary procedures, lowering drug costs, eliminating frivolous lawsuits, regulating insurance claims among other insurance regulations.

It seems we have failed trying to lower our costs. So now we insist on socializing our health care system. I look at this as simply another form of wealth redistribution. Is wealth redistribution a bad thing? I strongly believe every person should have the right to have as much success as possible without paying up the ying yang. Let's not penalize people for their success. Instead, motivate people to be successful. Is it a coincidense that America has the largest economy and yet we have less socialism than most countries in the world? Let's not slow down success, let's keep the success moving forward. Success causes a trickling effect down to the lower income classes and redistributes wealth without government intervening.

Perhaps while we socialize our health care system, we'll end up regulating health care successfully. Regulating health care and socializing health care do not have to coincide. Going back to the beginning of my point in watching a loved one go through our existing health care system. Bad things happen to people, and I pray my family stays healthy. However, if medial expenses were regulated properly, most heavy expenses can be reduced greatly. Regulation can also improve insurance coverage. Perhaps then, families can at least depend on health care without costing a fortune.

Our country should focus on medical experts developing ideas to help regulate our health care system in order to reduce cost. No, I'm not saying government should be monitoring our salt intake

. But we do need to get rid of the unnecessary costs that's causing our medical care costs to rise faster than any other country.

Steve Powell · Guru

Steve Powell wrote:

Jibslider wrote:

Steve Powell wrote:
Question, which version of the oath did you have to recite?

Jib, in order to uphold your "oath" you must be free to practice WITH YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT. Government run healthcare prevents you from practicing in this manner. If the government is going to guarantee free healthcare it has to control the cost. In order to control the cost it's going to tell you how you do your job.

Most doctors today are ignoring many of the guidelines set forth by the government. But only because they aren't being enforced yet. Once they become law, you'll pay fines if you don't do it exactly how they tell you. Which goes against your "oath" of providing your services with your best judgement.

I need you to define "publicly available". Because as of today, emergency services are publicly available to any US citizen as well as any illegal citizen.

I certainly hope you aren't referring to all procedures covered under insurance because this would put our financial crisis over the edge. We might as well just hand the keys over to China if that's what your proposing.
Here is a snippet of the oath I had to recite: "I will place the treatment of those who seek my care above personal gain and strive to see that none shall lack for proper care."

I am referring to all procedured covered under insurance. I'm talking about government run healthcare. How does that correlate with "handing the keys over to China" as you put it?

How does the goverment pay for the care given to those that cannot afford it?

ps...you're quoting the Doctor of Optometry Oath. Should eyecare be covered by the government too?

Steve Powell · Guru

Jibslider wrote:

Steve Powell wrote:
Question, which version of the oath did you have to recite?

Jib, in order to uphold your "oath" you must be free to practice WITH YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT. Government run healthcare prevents you from practicing in this manner. If the government is going to guarantee free healthcare it has to control the cost. In order to control the cost it's going to tell you how you do your job.

Most doctors today are ignoring many of the guidelines set forth by the government. But only because they aren't being enforced yet. Once they become law, you'll pay fines if you don't do it exactly how they tell you. Which goes against your "oath" of providing your services with your best judgement.

I need you to define "publicly available". Because as of today, emergency services are publicly available to any US citizen as well as any illegal citizen.

I certainly hope you aren't referring to all procedures covered under insurance because this would put our financial crisis over the edge. We might as well just hand the keys over to China if that's what your proposing.
Here is a snippet of the oath I had to recite: "I will place the treatment of those who seek my care above personal gain and strive to see that none shall lack for proper care."

I am referring to all procedured covered under insurance. I'm talking about government run healthcare. How does that correlate with "handing the keys over to China" as you put it?

How does the goverment pay for the care given to those that cannot afford it?

Jibslider · Senior Member

Tesla wrote:

Hey Jib it's awesome when you contradict yourself...

so to clarify you want a policy that gives health care to every US citizen, but you'd like to include illegals as well?

on top of that why don't we just give every citizen 40,000 a year to live on no matter what and see how productive a country we are....

I am not contradicting myself. I think every US citizen should be allowed healthcare provided by the US government. When I go to Canada as a US citizen I am not allowed the same healthcare rights as Canadian Residents with social insurance numbers.

Why would you even propose giving every citizen 40,000 a year to live on? I didn't propose that? It seems a little over the top, and not related to the topic at hand.

Jibslider · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:
Question, which version of the oath did you have to recite?

Jib, in order to uphold your "oath" you must be free to practice WITH YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT. Government run healthcare prevents you from practicing in this manner. If the government is going to guarantee free healthcare it has to control the cost. In order to control the cost it's going to tell you how you do your job.

Most doctors today are ignoring many of the guidelines set forth by the government. But only because they aren't being enforced yet. Once they become law, you'll pay fines if you don't do it exactly how they tell you. Which goes against your "oath" of providing your services with your best judgement.

I need you to define "publicly available". Because as of today, emergency services are publicly available to any US citizen as well as any illegal citizen.

I certainly hope you aren't referring to all procedures covered under insurance because this would put our financial crisis over the edge. We might as well just hand the keys over to China if that's what your proposing.

Here is a snippet of the oath I had to recite: "I will place the treatment of those who seek my care above personal gain and strive to see that none shall lack for proper care."

I am referring to all procedured covered under insurance. I'm talking about government run healthcare. How does that correlate with "handing the keys over to China" as you put it?

Sigma · Veteran Member

Tesla wrote:

http://www.newswithviews.com/JBWilliams/williams130.htm

well instead of taking a step in the right direction after bushy we took three steps in the wrong direction.

I understand the premise of wanting to care for everyone, we are and have been giving free healthcare to illegals now for decades, this is a major issue and weight on the system and on everyones costs....

and a big reason for the collapse of the dollar, not that our empirism & bailout runs haven't contributed as well.

I for one support MT and any other state that will tell the federal government to mind it's manners and respectfully decline Obama care and any other serious over reach of federal powers....

did you know that our local sheriffs have the right and power to throw any federal agent out of their local if they man up?

we have lots of powers at the state and local levels we can use and take to prevent such despotism.

It seems to me that the Supremacy Clause in the Constitution (Article VI, Clause 2) is directly counter to this claim. In fact, I suspect that all states efforts at nullification would likely fall under the auspices of the Supremacy Clause. After all, this isn’t the first time nullification has been bandied about.

Here is an interesting article discussing the history of nullification threats in the U.S.

I’m no attorney, but it seems to me that, as with Alabama’s effort to nullfy Brown v. the Board of Education, states efforts to nullify health care reform will ultimately be decided by the courts. That is, after all, why we have judicial review.

I’m fairly confident that sheriffs do not have the right to “throw any federal agency out,” even if that’s what Sheriff Joe would probably prefer.

-- Edited by Sigma on Wednesday 9th of February 2011 05:35:57 PM

Tesla · Veteran Member

"The only reason the new health care law should be repealed is to make all health care publicly available to any citizen of the USA. (yes, period).

If you do have issues with the current law as it stands, please state your specific reasons here and we will chat.

__________________
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -Dr. Johnson"

Hey Jib it's awesome when you contradict yourself...

so to clarify you want a policy that gives health care to every US citizen, but you'd like to include illegals as well?

on top of that why don't we just give every citizen 40,000 a year to live on no matter what and see how productive a country we are....

Steve Powell · Guru

Question, which version of the oath did you have to recite?

Jib, in order to uphold your "oath" you must be free to practice WITH YOUR BEST JUDGEMENT. Government run healthcare prevents you from practicing in this manner. If the government is going to guarantee free healthcare it has to control the cost. In order to control the cost it's going to tell you how you do your job.

Most doctors today are ignoring many of the guidelines set forth by the government. But only because they aren't being enforced yet. Once they become law, you'll pay fines if you don't do it exactly how they tell you. Which goes against your "oath" of providing your services with your best judgement.

I need you to define "publicly available". Because as of today, emergency services are publicly available to any US citizen as well as any illegal citizen.

I certainly hope you aren't referring to all procedures covered under insurance because this would put our financial crisis over the edge. We might as well just hand the keys over to China if that's what your proposing.

Jibslider · Senior Member

Tesla wrote:

...I understand the premise of wanting to care for everyone, we are and have been giving free healthcare to illegals now for decades, this is a major issue and weight on the system and on everyones costs....

Damn us US doctors who are following the oath we recited when accepting our professional licenses.

Jibslider · Senior Member

The only reason the new health care law should be repealed is to make all health care publicly available to any citizen of the USA. (yes, period).

If you do have issues with the current law as it stands, please state your specific reasons here and we will chat.

vko · Senior Member

Listening to President Obama and a few other people, they keep saying that this Health Care is gaining support. I don't see it myself. I would sure hate to loose my own Insurance or have it change in anyway, because of Obama Care. My hospital procedure tomorrow is suppose to cost 2000.00 - my portion will be 189.00. I would just hate to have any part of my insurance messed with. I not sure it would be, but this Health Care is still changing everyday, it hard to keep up with it.

Steve Powell · Guru

<sniff> <sniff> Hmmm...methinks me smells a North Dakota malitia forming? biggrin

Tesla · Veteran Member

http://www.newswithviews.com/JBWilliams/williams130.htm

well instead of taking a step in the right direction after bushy we took three steps in the wrong direction.

I understand the premise of wanting to care for everyone, we are and have been giving free healthcare to illegals now for decades, this is a major issue and weight on the system and on everyones costs....

and a big reason for the collapse of the dollar, not that our empirism & bailout runs haven't contributed as well.

I for one support MT and any other state that will tell the federal government to mind it's manners and respectfully decline Obama care and any other serious over reach of federal powers....

did you know that our local sheriffs have the right and power to throw any federal agent out of their local if they man up?

we have lots of powers at the state and local levels we can use and take to prevent such despotism.

Steve Powell · Guru

I'm still laughing at this. His voice got sooo high! lol

Jimmylikesvikes · Veteran Member

It's been a while since I've posted on this forum. But I recently listened to a Glenn Beck Youtube and I had to laugh. During the last State of the Union, it seems our health care status seemed a little obscure. I'm guessing due to the most recent election results, health care reform is probably not a popular idea at the moment. What do you all think? Should we continue down the path we are going, or do we back up and look at new alternatives less extreme than socialized health care?

Here is the Youtube if anyone's interested:

-- Edited by Jimmylikesvikes on Tuesday 8th of February 2011 02:39:01 PM