Williston, ND Active Issues

R Hill · Veteran Member

RE: To strip or not to strip...

Steve Powell · Guru

Is this the part where I take the noodles off the stove before the water starts to boil over the edge?

R Hill · Veteran Member

Well now,isn't that special.

Heisenbergs Uncertainty · Member

R Hill

Your logical insight and rational argument has converted me, I have seen the light. Thank you, I almost went to hell. Whew!

rwaitman · Senior Member

Heisenbergs Uncertainty wrote:
R Hill
Your logical insight and rational argument has converted me, I have seen the light. Thank you, I almost went to hell. Whew!

I am so happy to hear this...I would hate it if someone of your obvious high intellect and superior ability to eloquently express yourself without talking above, or talking down to the rest of us, would wind up in Hell.

We will all pray for you. Aside from all that, I look forward to your future posts.

;o)

-- Edited by rwaitman on Wednesday 1st of February 2012 09:13:21 AM

Heisenbergs Uncertainty · Member

I had to reply when challenged. Somewhere in this thread I read that Christians were praying and attempting to enlighten patrons of the nu-die bar. I don't judge people (I figured this out on my own, without the bible), if people want to work or frequent these establishments I say git er done. I just had a problem with letting holier than thou types trying to tell others how to live because "their" religion tells them to. Leave that stuff at church or at home. If a person went around actively trying to convince Christians that their beliefs were wrong would be tarred and feathered. But not a word is said to the christian that stops people in the street to spread the good news. It's taboo to question ones faith, something I don't do unless it is jammed in my face in public. Now Im done.....i think.

R Hill · Veteran Member

Heisenbergs Uncertainty wrote:
I had to reply when challenged. Somewhere in this thread I read that Christians were praying and attempting to enlighten patrons of the nu-die bar. I don't judge people (I figured this out on my own, without the bible), if people want to work or frequent these establishments I say git er done. I just had a problem with letting holier than thou types trying to tell others how to live because "their" religion tells them to. Leave that stuff at church or at home. If a person went around actively trying to convince Christians that their beliefs were wrong would be tarred and feathered. But not a word is said to the christian that stops people in the street to spread the good news. It's taboo to question ones faith, something I don't do unless it is jammed in my face in public. Now Im done.....i think.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Well at least you are on topic. To say you don't judge...well That's hard to believe. To say people should get r done out of freedom to go,then say "Christians" should stop telling others how to live is just ...well,unneccesary and not very nice.To say others would be tarred and feathered is not true and you know it.
You said "not a word is said to Christians that stops people in the street"Right now Christians(more than any other religion) are being punished for being Christians. If you want to side with the Punishers,that's fine but be warned God is not amused.Are you also saying that advertisers shouldn't be able to advertise "their"belief?.Sounds like censorship to me and others. When you were being taught in school did you ever think that what you were taught was 100% true?. As you grow in life you learn that certain things apply and some don't. By demeaning others really doesn't help your cause. Christians believe that Sin is the thing that leads to death. If you don't believe that, then why not just let it go? Also you said you were challenged , this thread was almost a year with out comment or post until you dug it up. That doesn't change the discussion much but does make one wonder of your reasons or motives.There is more truth in the Christian bible than in any school book or Professor's teachings. I do know at least Two things.
1. There is a God
2.You are not him.
Ok--- three The Giants will win the Super Bowl.
Don't tarr and feather me ok?

-- Edited by R Hill on Tuesday 31st of January 2012 05:05:21 PM

R Hill · Veteran Member

rwaitman wrote:
R Hill wrote:
I agree with you rwaitman,I would like to read the posts on the subject,just in the right place. I also think it's(discussing religion) like a screen door on a submarine,it's functional yet brings the sub down and kills all on it.
I really do believe in order to keep the" Williston,N.D. Active Issues" what it is,is for a New Topiic thread to be started. I signed up for reply's to be e-mailed to me on the topic of" to strip or not to strip" and am getting what I will soon consider a Hijack of that thread. Not sure If the Adminstrater can do that or not.I don't want censorship,just continue your discussion among yourself's in a proper thread. Anybody else agree? Also I thought" Heisenbergs Uncertainty" said he/she would not be posting anymore on the subject? Well, so much for integrity of someones word....sigh...

-- Edited by R Hill on Monday 30th of January 2012 05:54:11 PM

Sorry! That's my bad. I asked HU to reply to Sigma. I do NOT agree with him but don't have the theological background to whoop his ash. We need to have these debates though. Opposing viewpoints lead to better understanding. Maybe we could go ahead and move the thread

rwaitman · Senior Member

R Hill wrote:
I really do believe in order to keep the" Williston,N.D. Active Issues" what it is,is for a New Topiic thread to be started. I signed up for reply's to be e-mailed to me on the topic of" to strip or not to strip" and am getting what I will soon consider a Hijack of that thread. Not sure If the Adminstrater can do that or not.I don't want censorship,just continue your discussion among yourself's in a proper thread. Anybody else agree? Also I thought" Heisenbergs Uncertainty" said he/she would not be posting anymore on the subject? Well, so much for integrity of someones word....sigh...

-- Edited by R Hill on Monday 30th of January 2012 05:54:11 PM

Sorry! That's my bad. I asked HU to reply to Sigma. I do NOT agree with him but don't have the theological background to whoop his ash. We need to have these debates though. Opposing viewpoints lead to better understanding. Maybe we could go ahead and move the thread

Heisenbergs Uncertainty · Member

Sigma,

First off, those who do not accept Jesus Christ as lord and savior are doomed to "hell". This is true no matter what statements may be released from the catholic church, which by the way doen't speak for other non-catholic Christians. Further, I was arguing from what the bible itself states, which if taken literally implies this child goes to hell(or at least not heaven). This is also a problem as we find humans correcting and interpreting the bible. I find it hard to believe that a all powerful god needs either correcting or clarification.

The fact that the bible contains errors and conflicting statements is beyond debate. Many Christians (Like Steve) assert the bible to be the actual word of god. If the bible is the word of god than god is a nasty, mean individual that I would not want living in my neighborhood. He also appears to make alot of mistakes which strips him of all powerful status. You, like many other Christians, like to say that the bible was meant for a different time. So does that mean god will be releasing another edition soon? Couldn't a all powerful god have foreseen this problem and written a book for everyone regardless of time? You also site passages from the bible to support your argument, are the passages you sited relevant? Was it you that decided they were relevant? The problem that arises is that anyone can decide what is relevant and what isn't. So now we have thousands of denominations interpreting the bible in different way. I understand the differences are often minute but they all still claim to preach true Christianity. Was this gods plan because you do agree god has a plan right?

I would also like to point out that the old testament was written for the Jews (the chosen people of god). Not one single "prophecy" Christians claim foretold of Jesus contains any solid dates or even the name Jesus. They are, as many prophecies are, vague. Why wouldn't the text say "Jesus, son of god, born of Mary, will be born on this date, will die for your sins on this date". Instead it appears Christians combed through the old testament and sited any verse that they could twist to make it appear as if it is predicting the coming of Jesus. It is easy to do this after the fact, but I say again, not one directly and clearly predicts anything.

So we move from the old testament(Jews, chosen people of god) to the new testament (Jesus, son of god, died for original sin). Why does god switch from selectively being the god of the Jews to later being the god of anyone that accepts Jesus as savior? Is god that indecisive? Does he change his mind that much? If god is all knowing then god himself must know what will happen in the future. He must also know what he himself will do in the future. So if god knows what he will do in the future then he has no choice but to do it. Then by definition god has no free will. But yet god still manages to change his mind, become more benevolent (old testament god was evil-new testament god becomes loving). Christians will shrug this argument off as mortal humans attempting to know the nature of god, which can't be done. But Christians are constantly interpreting the will of god when they deem a bible verse not relevant to us anymore. So if the bible is up for interpretation then it cannot be the work of yaweh, the all powerful.

rwaitman · Senior Member

Heisenberg's Uncertainty....please come back. I really look forward to your rebuttal to Sigma.

I mean that in all sincerity too.....

;o)

R Hill · Veteran Member

I really do believe in order to keep the" Williston,N.D. Active Issues" what it is,is for a New Topiic thread to be started. I signed up for reply's to be e-mailed to me on the topic of" to strip or not to strip" and am getting what I will soon consider a Hijack of that thread. Not sure If the Adminstrater can do that or not.I don't want censorship,just continue your discussion among yourself's in a proper thread. Anybody else agree? Also I thought" Heisenbergs Uncertainty" said he/she would not be posting anymore on the subject? Well, so much for integrity of someones word....sigh...

-- Edited by R Hill on Monday 30th of January 2012 05:54:11 PM

Sigma · Veteran Member

Arguing religion on the internet is like doing jumping jacks in an empty pool with the hopes that your sweat will fill it up. Sure, it can be a healthy activity for a while, but you’ll tired out quickly and in the end nothing really gets accomplished. That being said, there are a few things I’d like to point out. Not as an argument, but more of a counterpoint.

The Church (meaning, the Catholic Church) does not claim to know with certainty if a particular soul goes to heaven upon death. It is impossible for anyone to know the state of that soul at the moment of death. What the Church does teach is that it is very possible for a person who has never heard Christ’s message to enter into heaving so long as that person led a virtuous life. The following is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all good and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

CCC847..."Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation."

So that answers the “Child born in South America” question. Understand I’m coming from a Catholic perspective, so the artificial restrains of Sola Scriptura do not apply.

As for proof of God, I’d point to St. Anslem and St. Thomas Aquinas, both of whom are considered great scholars of theology and law The webpage I linked does a far better job and I explaining things, so I’ll let those interested take a read. I’ve never found the “I believe in God and my faith in His existence is enough” argument to be sufficient. God is rational, and because He is rational we can find his fingerprints in all reality. Faith like a child is a good thing, I know, but I’ve never mastered that. How fortunate for me, then, to know that God fits perfectly well into a rational world view.

Regarding the Bible being the Word of God, one of the favorite straw man arguments for most who question the Bible is to bring up old Mosaic Law and question why it is ignored today. Because after all, some of that stuff is downright draconian by todays standards. The truth is that Law of Exodus and Leviticus do not apply to modern Christianity. Just look at Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Follow that up with Hebrews 8:6-13 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says:
"The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord. This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach everyone his fellow or everyone his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away

On a side note, the part of the quote above regarding the part about heaven and earth not passing. What he means is, sooner would heaven and earth pass away than one jot or tittle of the law would pass "till all be fulfilled". In other words, there is no way one jot or tittle will pass from the law, until all be fulfilled, which is what Jesus did.

And to speak to the obvious, yes, I am using the Bible as my reference source. In this instance doing so is exceptionally appropriate and necessary, as the question concerns Biblical inconsistencies. Jesus cam to fulfill the Mosaic law, which was replaced by the New Covenant. The Law was in place as a way to guide the people of the time. Some of the Old Testament still has force (the 10 commandments because that part of the old Law is rooted in Natural Law (another concept written about by St. Thomas Aquinas.) But not everything, in fact, a vast majority of the old Jewish Law, was made null and void. Paul writes about this extensively in almost the entire Book of Galatians!

Now whether you believe in the Bible or not, I see no inconsistency there. Simply saying “the mistakes are there – debate over” is intellectually lazy.

II suppose I could go on, but again, arguing religion on the internet is like trying to jump on a broken trampoline. Sure, you may have fun for a while, but eventually someone is going to eventually get hurt and nothing will really be accomplished in the end. I am not here to preach or convert or evangelize, just to take a stand against the artificial notion that religion is illogical and inconsistent. I’ll admit that there are plenty of people and even whole denominations that confuse the issue. For every point of logic I can argue, there are probably 100 Pat Robinson’s preaching that the Haiti earthquake was God’s punishment for the local population allying with the Devil in the 1800’s. Christianity’s worst enemy is other so-called Christians.

-- Edited by Sigma on Friday 27th of January 2012 09:48:22 AM

-- Edited by Sigma on Tuesday 31st of January 2012 08:04:07 PM

Heisenbergs Uncertainty · Member

You measure this force by the laws we oberve throughout our universe. Gravity, weak/strong nuclear force, electromagnetic force. We can easily measure these forces without having any effect whatsoever(jump).

I personally believe that the work being done at the Large Hadron Collider(LHC) in Geneva will reveal more to us. I think the answer to existance may be found at the subatomic level. They are working to discover new particles at the tiniest subatomic level. What they discover will change the way we think. But one thing they won't find while smashing atoms together is jesus.

Steve Powell · Guru

Heisenbergs Uncertainty wrote:
Steve, no need for a new post(especialy one about mistakes in the bible-the mistakes are there-debate over).This will be my last post on the subject. For clarification I am no atheiest. I believe there is a force or energy that may fit the definition of "god" but it doesnt have a long white beard or require a constant flow of money or listen to millions of prayers every day while answere none, ect.
Randy,
Christianity believes the bible to be the "word" of god and there is no debate on that. So since all christians believe god to be perfect and without fault the bible should therefore be perfect and without fault. Since it's not perfect I contend it is merely the work of men with agendas because humanity makes all kinds of mistakes.
I would be willing to bet that you spent some time in church when you were young. If so that is probably why your logic is unable remove divinity from the bible. Some of the ideas they drillied into your brain probably still exist today and this is precisley the point I was trying to get accross to VKO. Any teachings that tell you to suppress logic and accept the irrational are bad teachings. If god created everything then he himself created logic. If anything created by god is good we must consider logic as divine. God created logic but doesnt want us to utilize it?

Well then...my question to you is...how do you measure the affects of this "force" without making changes to what it is you're measuring? biggrin biggrin biggrin

Heisenbergs Uncertainty · Member

Steve, no need for a new post(especialy one about mistakes in the bible-the mistakes are there-debate over).This will be my last post on the subject. For clarification I am no atheiest. I believe there is a force or energy that may fit the definition of "god" but it doesnt have a long white beard or require a constant flow of money or listen to millions of prayers every day while answere none, ect.

Randy,

Christianity believes the bible to be the "word" of god and there is no debate on that. So since all christians believe god to be perfect and without fault the bible should therefore be perfect and without fault. Since it's not perfect I contend it is merely the work of men with agendas because humanity makes all kinds of mistakes.

I would be willing to bet that you spent some time in church when you were young. If so that is probably why your logic is unable remove divinity from the bible. Some of the ideas they drillied into your brain probably still exist today and this is precisley the point I was trying to get accross to VKO. Any teachings that tell you to suppress logic and accept the irrational are bad teachings. If god created everything then he himself created logic. If anything created by god is good we must consider logic as divine. God created logic but doesnt want us to utilize it?

Steve Powell · Guru

They might want to. biggrin Sounds dangerous.

Could spell DOOM-SDAY.

-- Edited by Steve Powell on Wednesday 25th of January 2012 06:01:48 PM

rwaitman · Senior Member

I agree with Steve...move it on over. You make a really logical case, so I am interested in seeing how the debate proceeds. I am in no way a biblical scholar, and I agree that God did not write the Bible, in the technical sense but do believe that it was Divinely inspired.

I guess a lot of a person's perspective relies on faith, which sometimes defies logic. This is a strange statement coming from me, who believes so strongly in logic, but there it is....

There was a movie that came out in the mid 90's named Contact,and it starred Matthew McConaughey and Jodie Foster. It confronted the idea of faith....and made for a good philosophical study....you might wanna take a look at it sometime.

;o)

Steve Powell · Guru

Heisenbergs Uncertainty wrote:
Steve,
I am glad you have found peace in your life. You attribute this peace to god rewarding you for your faith. But I am sure you would agree that people of all religions can attain this same peace by doing whatever makes their god happy. Since we agree that the peace you so love can be had by anyone, regardless of their religion, seems to indicate that there is nothing special about your particular religion/god. Because I ask you-why would your most vengeful god distribute this peace to those that do not adhere to his laws. The reason is because "god" as living creator has nothing to do with your feelings of peace. We all fear death and what lies beyond. We very badly want to believe that when we die the screen doesn't just blank out. This fear drives us search out explanations of existence that puts us at ease. In your case Christianity filled the void. Once you have a explanation that whipes out the fear all that you are left with is peace.
As a christian you believe that the bible is the word of god. You can't pick and choose what versus to follow while declaring other verses not be taken literally. If part of it is the word of god then it all must be the word of god as god is perfect and without fault. But this is exactly what Christians do constantly. For example-when a verse in the bible authorizes and promotes slavery it is declared a relic from a long ago time. Because we have two options: 1) Accept the entire bible as the word of a perfect god which by definition implies he is incapable of making mistakes. If we accept it as the perfect word of a perfect god we have no choice but to promote and preach for slavery(everything god commands is good). 2) Accept that the bible contains mistakes and therefore could not have been produced by a perfect god or any god for that matter.
You yourself declared "My soul has been calmed by His soothing words" so I ask you which option do you believe in. You declared that you believe that the versus in the bible are directly from your perfect god. Because the bible can't be the word of a perfect god and contain mistakes and errors it all must be taken as a whole. Therefore you have no choice but to condone slavery, the subjugation of women, ect. I suppose you could assert that your god makes mistakes. But then you concede the entire argument as your religion is based on a infallible creator.

Sounds like the makings of a new thread. You should start a thread on the mistakes of the Bible. We could argue this theory on that thread so we can keep this one on track.

Heisenbergs Uncertainty · Member

I meant to include these examples in my previous post to Mr. Powell.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

"Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him." (Ephesians 6:5-9)

The bible is full of this stuff.

Heisenbergs Uncertainty · Member

To VKO:

I never said your son turned out bad and how he turned out owes nothing to religion. You seemed to take pride when you declared that after confirmation your son was free to chose his own way. You knew your kid would stay faithful because that was YOUR goal. You say you wanted him to choose when you yourself made that choice years ago. There is technically nothing wrong with that just don't make statements to the contrary.

In your latest post you stated that what religion does to kids is no different then what colleges and unions do with their members. Well I am sorry buy you are wrong. Young adults in college are capable of interpreting information (factual and otherwise) based on logic. They hear the arguments and weigh the evidence at which time they form their own belief. This is much different than constantly driving fear into a young child. Telling the child that those who don't believe (including their family, friends, ect.) will spend eternity in this horrible place called hell. The distinction is so obvious in fact that I am going to quit this paragraph mid sent

Tell me this is fair. A child is born in the jungle of south America. That child only interacts with it's tribe. The child has never even had the opportunity to be exposed to Christianity. Then the child falls into a river and drowns. According to christian beliefs and backed by biblical versus that child goes to hell. While a life long rapist accepts Jesus Christ as his savior on his deathbed and goes to heaven. Any group that doesn't see how morally wrong that is is in itself dangerous.

Lastly, you stated that you need no visible proof for your god or beliefs. Well that is good because no proffe exist, visible or otherwise. But christianity does something amazing when confronted with this lack of proof. They take the weakest part of their argument(no proof) and make it a condition of entry(Faith). Good stuff.

Heisenbergs Uncertainty · Member

Steve,

I am glad you have found peace in your life. You attribute this peace to god rewarding you for your faith. But I am sure you would agree that people of all religions can attain this same peace by doing whatever makes their god happy. Since we agree that the peace you so love can be had by anyone, regardless of their religion, seems to indicate that there is nothing special about your particular religion/god. Because I ask you-why would your most vengeful god distribute this peace to those that do not adhere to his laws. The reason is because "god" as living creator has nothing to do with your feelings of peace. We all fear death and what lies beyond. We very badly want to believe that when we die the screen doesn't just blank out. This fear drives us search out explanations of existence that puts us at ease. In your case Christianity filled the void. Once you have a explanation that whipes out the fear all that you are left with is peace.

As a christian you believe that the bible is the word of god. You can't pick and choose what versus to follow while declaring other verses not be taken literally. If part of it is the word of god then it all must be the word of god as god is perfect and without fault. But this is exactly what Christians do constantly. For example-when a verse in the bible authorizes and promotes slavery it is declared a relic from a long ago time. Because we have two options: 1) Accept the entire bible as the word of a perfect god which by definition implies he is incapable of making mistakes. If we accept it as the perfect word of a perfect god we have no choice but to promote and preach for slavery(everything god commands is good). 2) Accept that the bible contains mistakes and therefore could not have been produced by a perfect god or any god for that matter.

You yourself declared "My soul has been calmed by His soothing words" so I ask you which option do you believe in. You declared that you believe that the versus in the bible are directly from your perfect god. Because the bible can't be the word of a perfect god and contain mistakes and errors it all must be taken as a whole. Therefore you have no choice but to condone slavery, the subjugation of women, ect. I suppose you could assert that your god makes mistakes. But then you concede the entire argument as your religion is based on a infallible creator.

vko · Senior Member

Hi Steve.. exactly. My word's have never worked , with People ,and my heart does. Everyday I see it. Basically, I see it through my animals eyes. Pretty amazing...they have nothing to Prove and are Honest. Have a great week!!!! Nice seeing you too.

Steve Powell · Guru

I suppose I should reply.

God is a peaceful entity. He has lead me to a place in my life that has put me more at peace than I have ever been. My soul has been calmed by His soothing words. I have learned to treat everyone, including those I disagree with, with the same respect I would want them to treat me. I have learned humility. I know only as much as anyone else or less.

I believe God has used this message board, leadership classes, Herald comments sections, local service group opportunities etc.... to make me learn all of the above. Of course, along with his teachings from the Bible.

God is the same God that Lives throughout eternity which includes every portion of history that actively wrote His words in the Bible.

So what relevance does this have to this thread? I guess the bottom line then is...unless it has to do with varnish or wall paper....well then...NOT to strip.

Have a great week everyone!!!

vko · Senior Member

Not to worry..I thought things would slow down. Not.

rwaitman · Senior Member

vko wrote:
First of all, I really am too busy at the moment. Second: My son turned into one heck of a good man, and I am very proud of him. Third: It is no different Teachers and Unions that are Liberal, pounding ok agenda into every child's brain day, after day, after day. And the colleges do the same, same. I need no visable proof of God or my beliefs, it is what it is, unless you close your heart. You on your own and if that's what you believe, go for it. So for now good night , nice seeing you Randy..

Hi VKO: Please don't think I am taking the side of the new poster. He or she is pushing hard to play devil's advocate (literally) on the active board. His comments are obviously a deliberate provocation to stir up debate. My facetious comment was to forewarn members to remember that we DO want to have debate and dialog and discussion. I don't know how C.O. Got brought into the post and of course you should be proud of him. Your comment about faith was the first best answer. I hope you post up soon. I was responding to the post that went to Steve about "our boy Jesus", and it wound up connected to the post the newby sent you.

vko · Senior Member

First of all, I really am too busy at the moment. Second: My son turned into one heck of a good man, and I am very proud of him. Third: It is no different Teachers and Unions that are Liberal, pounding their agenda into every child's brain day, after day, after day. And the colleges do the same, same. I need no visable proof of God or my beliefs, it is what it is, unless you close your heart. You on your own and if that's what you believe, go for it. So for now good night , nice seeing you Randy..

rwaitman · Senior Member

Heisenbergs Uncertainty wrote:
VKO

You said that you sent your child to Sunday school and confirmation after which is was his choice what to believe. Truth is you made the choice for him years ago. He was indoctrinated by the church week in and week out. You must believe because if you don't you burn in hell f-o-r e-v-e-r. Your child feared this from day one. He was also taught to not question his religion because to do so was against god. He was told god purposely withheld concrete proof of his existence because he wanted us to have "faith". To believe without proof even though it all seems unlikely. By the time he was confirmed he had no other choice to make. You stunted your child's ability to use logic and reason. So don't act like your open minded. To me forcing your child to go to church is the same as KKK members dressing their kids in "white power" t-shirts and marching them in parades. There is no difference when intollerance is involved.

Steve....this is so unreal....it has got to be you in disguise. Sheesh....if you were so bored and desperate to get more posts on the page that you had to create an alter ego..."an evil twin", if you will, to stir up controversy and stimulate discussion...you have succeeded..... ;o)

...and if it is real....please remember this is a catalyst for discussion not shouting....I thought it was pretty good.

Heisenbergs Uncertainty · Member

VKO

You said that you sent your child to Sunday school and confirmation after which is was his choice what to believe. Truth is you made the choice for him years ago. He was indoctrinated by the church week in and week out. You must believe because if you don't you burn in hell f-o-r e-v-e-r. Your child feared this from day one. He was also taught to not question his religion because to do so was against god. He was told god purposely withheld concrete proof of his existence because he wanted us to have "faith". To believe without proof even though it all seems unlikely. By the time he was confirmed he had no other choice to make. You stunted your child's ability to use logic and reason. So don't act like your open minded. To me forcing your child to go to church is the same as KKK members dressing their kids in "white power" t-shirts and marching them in parades. There is no difference when intollerance is involved.

Heisenbergs Uncertainty · Member

Steve,

Your boy Jesus, son of god to Christian's, is only one of many prophets in the Islamic religion. But when I studied on Islam and the Koran I realized most of the stories of the Koran were plagiarized from the New Testament. Mohammad described the role of Jesus as that of a common messenger, no more important then any other. By doing this it was easier convert Christians. The Koran also plagiarizes the old testament. It validates both books as the word of god but states the Koran is the final book which trumps the others. When we talk about Jews we see how Christians did the same thing done to them by the Muslims. They took the stories and prophecies of the old testament and used them to validate Jesus Christ as the son of god, 1/3rd of the holy trinity and all around bad ass of the Abrahamic religions. To the Jews it was all crazy talk. They watched this cult grow right in front of their eyes. They new it was bull but the cult grew. None of the books of the bible were written by anybody alive when Jesus was claimed to live. Most stories are third and fourth hand accounts of events never proven to even had happened. The stories themselves often contradict each other. The bible is a work of fiction and should never be taken seriously. Organised religion holds humanity back. My god doen't get involved in such petty matters. He doesn't require his creation to constantly pray and worship him. He didn't create a son only to sacrifice him for original sin. My god could simply wave his hand and BOOM-done deal(if he bothered with such mundane things). Finally my god doen't need money. Christianities god must be bad with his finances because that fool is constantly asking for more. All the religions are wrong, they kill each other over nothing. But I say live your life how you choose just don't force me to listen to it. I know quite a few very smart people that refuse to see what is right in front of them. They must have faith and to question anything is to waiver.

And to save you the time.....yes, I know I am going to hell. I know the thought of non-believers burning in agony for eternity helps you sleep.

Steve Powell · Guru

It is a topic that will ALWAYS come up in any city that has them or considers adding one.

Was my post out of line?

MomOf2 · Veteran Member

Yup...I'm gonna be that person to bump this post up.

really?? This subject just doesnt die on the williston herald. What is the big deal?? I know we've debated this time afte time after time....but really??

Tesla · Veteran Member

what was the topic at hand?

strip or not to strip???

strip!!!!

Sigma · Veteran Member

Tesla wrote:

http://newroadsdaily.com/where-did-christmas-come-from-p1245-1.htm

Don't forget this story as the origin of the Christmas tere.

In 722 A.D., Saint Boniface, an English missionary and Benedictine monk who was known
as the "Apostle of Germany," came upon some men about to cut down a huge oak tree to be
used as a stake for a human sacrifice to Thor, one of the Norse Gods. With a mighty
blow from an axe, Saint Boniface felled the massive oak and, as the tree split apart,
a beautiful young fir tree sprang from its center. Saint Boniface informed the people
that this beautiful evergreen, whose branches pointed toward heaven, was a
holy tree...the tree of the Christ Child, symbolizing the purty of the New Faith and
the promise of eternal life. Saint Boniface then instructed them to henceforth carry
the evergreen from the wilderness, place it into their homes and surround it with
gifts symbolic of love and kindess.

Saint Boniface, whose feast day is celebrated on June 5th, received the name Winfrid
at his baptism but adopted Boniface before he was ordained to the priesthood.
He was martyred in Holland at the age of 75, along with 52 members of his flock,
when they were set upon by a troop of pagans. Saint Boniface is the Patron Saint of
Germany, as well as being the Patron Saint of Tailors and Brewers.

vko · Senior Member

Sorry - got a bad cold..outta of commission. Yes Steve you are right and also, bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors in church and the rest. I don't agree what they do, I just will not kill them for it.

And now back to sleep for me. P.S. Or Hurt People or Bomb a Strip Club, because you are against it. And there are people that feel they are okay in doing so. No matter what religion.

-- Edited by vko on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 02:13:26 PM

Steve Powell · Guru

I believe she is referring to "radical" Muslims. But there have also been "radical" "Christians" in the past that have posed as a "messiah" that have killed people as well. David Koresh would be a prime example.

Gotta try to get back to the topic at hand. Do you think "radical" Muslims or David Koresh have been to strip bars? biggrin

Start a new thread to continue this conversation vko.

Jibslider · Senior Member

vko wrote:

You right Jibslider, as long as they don't put a BOMB under my backend, in the name of their Belief. What ever that is.

Who is "they" you are refering to in your stereotype?

vko · Senior Member

You right Jibslider, as long as they don't put a BOMB under my backend, in the name of their Belief. What ever that is.

Jibslider · Senior Member

Like I said, holy is a subjective term. What is holy to one group or individual is not necessarily holy to a different group or a different individual.

Steve Powell · Guru

There are certainly parts of modern day Christmas that would be considered paganistic. The tree included. The star at the top of the tree however represents something very "Holy". I've had many discussions with 7th Day Adventists on this topic. They were very enlightening conversations.

Christmas means one thing to me. The birth of Jesus Christ. We decorate our house with nativity scenes and such, and we do have the tree. But anyone who steps foot in our house during the season knows where our hearts are during this Holy Day.

No one really knows the actual birth date of Jesus. I've seen April, September, December, etc... But we've grown to celebrate the Birth at this time so it would be silly to do so any other time of year. At least celebrate to the extent we do in December.

Tesla · Veteran Member

http://newroadsdaily.com/where-did-christmas-come-from-p1245-1.htm

Steve Powell · Guru

Should we take this debate to another thread?

Tesla · Veteran Member

So I bet you cut down and evergreen tree and worship it just like the Druids did?

:)

R Hill · Veteran Member

First I thought you were bowing out gracefully?lol? Second I did ask for his list, but the list contained days that are not considered "Holy Days" He said that some days people who" worship shopping " Sorry but that doesn't cut it as a Holy Day. Why some would take out the name of the person who the special day is for would have a problem with a lot of other 'Holy Days" just curious what would Easter be called?. Maybe we should stop using that Christian calander! after all it is 2011 A.D.( After Death).Try telling some one what years you went to school while not useing the Christian calander.How about we call boxer day wrestling day. Our money says "In God We Trust" but it is against the law to pray in school. How far do some people want to go with this? Sure you say the discussion will never end, but it is as important to many as is what you may believe in.

vko · Senior Member

If anymore it could be that simple. I would be so grateful.

Jibslider · Senior Member

vko wrote:

I am interested what "Jibslider" would say, if the Silverman's came to your house to, tell you, "You Just Violated their Belief, and just Offended Them." They are your neighbor's you know, after all. Just me being curious.

I would invite any neighbor into my house to discuss anything I may have done to offend them.

Steve Powell · Guru

I know what you're saying. We don't need to run down the streets of Williston screaming "Jesus saves".

vko · Senior Member

Not in my world. I pray for people all the time. I just won't put it in the Williston Herald. I try to be there when they need me, for whatever it is. I alway's asked for help to help other's - But I do not like people to tell me my life and belief is "bunk". And I sure as "whatever" would not blow anyone up over it. And I will alway stand up for my belief- whatever it take's.

Steve Powell · Guru

So....are you saying I shouldn't pray for other people? Only myself? My salvation is in my own hands? I shouldn't ask others to pray for me when I'm in troubled times? I shouldn't offer to pray for other people when they are going through tribulations?

I completely understand what you mean about the persecution of believers. But I don't think I agree that as believers we are meant to "go it alone". And I still don't understand why non-believers get upset when it's all irrelevant to them anyways.

vko · Senior Member

No Steve, it is an intolerance problem. If that is how you spell it. They are welcome to their belief's and welcome to their life, but, now the United State's of America, and the Churches that we have believe in is, intolerant. And SCREAM , the supposedly tolerant, they do. Strip if you want to. Go to the Churches of your Choosing. Believe what you what to. But for God's sake, quit poking your nose in each other's business. I have my soul to save, and for my family each are one their own. They have been taught and I don't want the teachings to quit, but for me, it is in their hand's. It has now become other belief's that are in America that try to shut you up as in other Countries. America is America, and yes I am intolerant of People telling me how to live my life and what I should do, but I do Celebrate Christmas - Easter - and the rest. The problem is now, the Choice of Choosing, has not taken place for a very long time. And I for one would not be happy in any way IF my neighbor came to my house to tell me to take my Christmas Tree and Light's down - nor quit reading the Bible. Their are some lines you just don't cross.