Williston, ND Active Issues

Steve Powell · Guru

RE: English as the Offical Language of the USA

Jibslider · Senior Member

Randy, how was your trip to Montreal? My wife's sister lives/studies there and I really enjoy the city, even thought I have only been there a couple of times and one of those times was to write a board exam. You really can get by just fine speaking English there, unless you're on the west side of Mont-Royal. Mmmmm.... poutine!

Let me answer the reply's one by one:

What making English the official language does is...it makes a statement that we are all Americans and we all speak English first. It makes a statement that says our founding fathers spoke English. That the Constitution is written in English. That the English language is part of our foundation. It makes a statement that if you want to be an American...speak English.

Seriously? I'm sure there are millions of people that live in this country that speak English as a second language (if at all) that are American by law, AND are more patriotic than alot of people that only know how to speak English. The founding fathers may have spoken English, but what about Native American languages? Steve, I really think this is a silly idea, that you imply to be American you must speak English.

Given the current liberal atmosphere in this country, on so many levels, I think making a statement IS quite necessary. Jib has latched onto the fact that English is NOT the official language...this is a lifeline statement for the common argument by those who wish this country to become segregated into factions within factions determined by ethnicity and language.

Randy, "...a lifeline statement for the common arguement by those who wish this country to become segregated into factions..."? Really? I think you may be reading into the statement a little too much, and jumped to an extreme conclusion. I, like many Americans believe in freedom of speech, and I believe that freedom should hold true whether you are speaking English, Spanish, or Pashtu.

I don't believe that letting the Garcia's down the street celebrate Day of the Dead while speaking Spanish as they please is any different that allowing Sven in Minot celebrate Norsk Hostfest while speaking Norwegian. Both festivals and languages are culturally significant to those people, and those cultures are what helped build this nation as a grand meeting place for all cultures of the world to experience freedom without having to conform. These folks are not creating segregated factions, they are celebrating and preserving thier cultural heritage.

I have a feeling, were we able to ask all those men and women that died in World War Two, their thoughts on this topic, they would argue that we should consider making English the official language.

I highly doubt the men that died during WWII really care what language people speak as long as those people weren't shooting at them. Many of those men that fought for the Allies had parents and grandparents that immigrated to the US that could not speak English. I can use a personal example, my father and his parents. My father and his family immigrated to the US in the late 40's from then Poland, now Ukraine. They could not speak a lick of English, and my father didn't learn to speak English until he began school. My family did learn to speak English, and then refused to speak their native language in public for fear of being deported. At home, they spoke their native language. Do you really want to conjure up this sort of fear by making it mandatory you speak English in America??

This country needs to make a statement of some sort, soon. Things are not alright here, not stable. Polarity is running rampant. And even sticking to the Constitution these days is questionable considering how it's being so twisted by the current admin. Making English the official language, in my mind, would be good medicine.

What kind of polarity are you talking about? I don't see that. I do see racism, and maybe this is what you're refering to, but I don't think making everybody speak English is any sort of wonder drug. Didn't the US try to make other "ethnic" group assimilate in the past? How favorably has history looked upon that movement?

Your comment about the Constition meaning the same thing no matter what language? Laughable. Our constitution is being mis-interpreted by English speaking people let alone what some other rogue country that would like us to sink to the bottom of the ocean might interpret it to mean. I completely disagree with that statement.

The Constitution is a living document whether we like it or not. It's a document that continues to get ammended and interpreted. I'm not sure it is possible to mis-interpret the Constitution of the US... it's just that there are many different ways to interpret it. It's a living document.

These aren't the "United" States of America if we aren't all on the same page. Freedom to speak whatever language you want doesn't unite...it maintains seperation.

It doesn't maintain seperation, it maintains cultural significance. Believe me, my grandfather doesn't speak Ukranian to my aunts because he's a seperatist. Contrary he is just the opposite, he loves this country more than just about anything else (besides Lemon pie). Steve, I really think your statement taps into some sort of paranoia that people are afraid that those among us that are not speaking English are speaking about us.

Steve Powell · Guru

Yes sir! It is!

rwaitman · Senior Member

Steve Powell wrote:

Dang, Sigma. I bet you and I could rally back and forth for hours on many topics like this. Your opinions are refreshing. Thanks for the great discussion.

I am thoroughly enjoying all this constructive and educational give and take also...learning new stuff too...

...exactly what you were trying for when you started this page, eh Steve?

;o)
r

Steve Powell · Guru

Yep, I realized that he was a Deist. Regardless, when it comes to "seperation of church and state" you hear his name more than most. Thus, when Jefferson speaks of it...people listen. His stance was freedom of religion. We all have the equal right to whatever religion we want. In fact, his comments of seperation were focused moreso on a federal level than a state level.

I'll agree the civil liberties groups will throw a bone every now and then, but were anyone to say they aren't far more pro-minority I'd call them on it.

Your comment on the situation being given far more attention than it deserved is your opinion. But, simply that, only your opinion. There are many that feel persecution is taking place as we speak. Albeit early stages. Another very interesting topic for another thread.

Dang, Sigma. I bet you and I could rally back and forth for hours on many topics like this. Your opinions are refreshing. Thanks for the great discussion.

Sigma · Veteran Member

Steve Powell wrote:

OK. Perhaps not handed out. Good catch...even worse...TAUGHT!

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/byronislam.htm

This was actually shortly after 9/11... http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=22289

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=38269

I would be willing to guess attemps have been made to hand them out just as we hear about Christians making attempts to get Bibles into schools as well.

The simple fact is though, there is no balance in this country when you have civil liberties groups fighting for only the minorities. I have no problem allowing a manger scene sit next to other religious figurenes on the front lawn of a courthouse. The constitution states freedom OF religion...not freedom FROM religion. Just one example I could site. Even Jefferson's statements on this had nothing to do with totally eliminating religion. Merely from establishing one set religion represented by the government.

But this is another topic for another thread.

If you feel that civil liberties is only for the minorities, then let me please direct your attention to Good News Club vs. Milford Central School. Milford Central School was not allowing an after school religious group from meeting on the school grounds. The group, the Good News Club, sued. The appeals court ruled in favor of the Good News Club. This is why religious groups can meet on public school grounds during non-school hours. Score one for civil liberties.
That’s a good site you found there, the Truth or Fiction one, and it deals handily with a situation that received far more attention than it deserved.
And Steve, you do realize that Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian, but a Deist. And even ad a Deist, he did not believe in any religion. That is why he fought against state funded churches in Virginia, and why he wrote the Jefferson Bible, which removes all references to Christ’s miracles.

Steve Powell · Guru

Actually, to be very specific, different languages still translate to different meanings. If I say "No worries" in English, in Spanish I could say "No hay peda". This actually translates to "no stink". In other words...no one farted so no worries. No stink? BUT, one can also say "no se preocupe" which means "don't pre-occupy yourself over that". I have to think there are many communication gaps between languages so I could argue that the constitution, word for word, could very well translate to something else.

So I have to ask then, do you think the day will come when someone will be telling us Spanish is required to do....<name specific event here>?

These aren't the "United" States of America if we aren't all on the same page. Freedom to speak whatever language you want doesn't unite...it maintains seperation.

In all reality, however, one could argue that there already is a standard in place that makes the statement English is the official language. In order to become a citizen you must be able to "read, write, speak, and understand words in ordinary usage in the English language".

Now that I've read that...I feel much better. biggrin biggrin biggrin

-- Edited by Steve Powell on Friday 21st of May 2010 02:32:58 PM

Steve Powell · Guru

OK. Perhaps not handed out. Good catch...even worse...TAUGHT!

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/byronislam.htm

This was actually shortly after 9/11... http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=22289

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=38269

I would be willing to guess attemps have been made to hand them out just as we hear about Christians making attempts to get Bibles into schools as well.

The simple fact is though, there is no balance in this country when you have civil liberties groups fighting for only the minorities. I have no problem allowing a manger scene sit next to other religious figurenes on the front lawn of a courthouse. The constitution states freedom OF religion...not freedom FROM religion. Just one example I could site. Even Jefferson's statements on this had nothing to do with totally eliminating religion. Merely from establishing one set religion represented by the government.

But this is another topic for another thread. wink

Sigma · Veteran Member

Steve Powell wrote:

What is the definition of the word......"means".

LOL. Thanks for that. smile

Steve Powell · Guru

What is the definition of the word......"means". biggrin

Sigma · Veteran Member

Steve Powell wrote:

I think we see this country through different colored shades then, Sigma. I see so many discrepencies in the so called "civil liberities" movement that go against what this country has stood for all those years of existence. When I hear about minorities and illegals receiving special treatment in this country, when I see Christians getting the short end of the stick in our schools and then see Korans being handed out in other schools, and the list goes on, I can't help but feel that we've forgotten what being American is really about. I have a feeling, were we able to ask all those men and women that died in World War Two, their thoughts on this topic, they would argue that we should consider making English the official language.

This country needs to make a statement of some sort, soon. Things are not alright here, not stable. Polarity is running rampant. And even sticking to the Constitution these days is questionable considering how it's being so twisted by the current admin. Making English the official language, in my mind, would be good medicine.

Your comment about the Constition meaning the same thing no matter what language? Laughable. Our constitution is being mis-interpreted by English speaking people let alone what some other rogue country that would like us to sink to the bottom of the ocean might interpret it to mean. I completely disagree with that statement.

-- Edited by Steve Powell on Friday 21st of May 2010 07:26:09 AM

I blame myself, really, for not specifying what I meant by “civil liberties.” I can understand if you are against affirmative action, university admittance quotas, and the like. But the civil liberties I was referring to were of a broader and nobler scope. Giving women the vote. Ending Jim Crow laws designed to keep former slaves and their descendents downtrodden. Things like that. And unless you think that a poll tax should make a comeback, then I hope there is no disagreement that these are worthy achievements.

Steve, I respect what you say on many issues, so please do not take what I am about to write as ad hominum. But a different lens, indeed. The optimist versus the pessimist, it seems.

So you’re saying that translating a written document into another language changes the fundamental meaning of the words? Were I to translate the Bill of Rights into Spanish and give it to an American who speaks Spanish, I seriously doubt there would be any questions as to the meaning of the words. Frankly, I do not care, nor should anyone else, how “rouge nations” interpret our Constitution. They would get it wrong whether it was written in English, Korean, Arabic, or Esperanto. The point of my comment is very simple; no matter what language the Constitution is written in. the language does not change. I cannot speak to those who view it through a different cultural lens, but then, that’s not the question here. The laughable thing, really, is mistaking concern over how other cultures interpret the Constitution as simple translation errors in the language.

Or to put it in other words, “Sprechen sie Deutsch” means “Do you speak German”. There’s no confusion there.

And frankly, the Constitution has been reinterpreted since it was written. That is the nature of the Constitution. That is the basis of Constitutional Law. Unless you think Indians should still be counted at ¾ a person for the purposes of the census, then I’ll give you leeway to take an Originalist’s stance regarding Constitutional interpretation. I think, rather, I’ll leave the question of Constitutional interpretation up to the Courts. That is, after all, one of their duties as proscribed in the document.

Which brings me back to the topic of English as an official language. I find it hard to react to what I view a principally a non-threat. Americas long tradition of not having an official language is a statement of the inclusiveness that had defined us for the last 100+ years. To me, it is a sign that says, “These freedoms are yours no matter the color of your skin, the religion you practice, or the language you speak.” That is important symbolism, as it is inclusive, not exclusive. To say that English must be our official language seems, to me, to undermine our confidence as a nation. It says “We are fearful of outsiders, and now must insulate ourselves against outside influence by declaring a national language. That will make us feel better.” Frankly, it’s smacks of jingoism at best and cowardness at worst.

After all, the real issue here isn’t making a statement about being an American, it is about making sure outsiders assimilate to our culture. But what is our culture…a salad bowl or a melting pot? (good analogy, Mr. Waitman. I’ve always liked the salsa versus ketchup comparison as well.) If it is a salad bowl, then we can need to make sure that as we add new elements, the overall quality of the salad is not ruined. If it is a melting pot, than everything must be forced into the same, bland paste.

So why not strike a middle ground? Make a law that says all official government business must be done in English. Make a law that says all education will be done in English except in cases where English is not the student’s primary language. In those cases, offer temporary special courses in remedial English student who does not speak English can eventually join his or her English speaking classmates. Allow for opportunities to assimilate rather then opportunities to divide. It maintains the quality and wonderful variety of the salad without smothering it with ketchup. And it doesn’t compromise our integrity as a nation of good people who open their arms to the world.

Sigma · Veteran Member

I hate to focus on only one thing that was said, but...you actually have seen or have evidence of Korans being handed out in schools? When and where did this occur?

Steve Powell · Guru

Sigma wrote:

Steve Powell wrote:

What making English the official language does is...it makes a statement that we are all Americans and we all speak English first. It makes a statement that says our founding fathers spoke English. That the Constitution is written in English. That the English language is part of our foundation. It makes a statement that if you want to be an American...speak English.

So after 234 of existence as a nation, one civil war, two world wars, and endless advances in the cause of civil and humanitarian rights, we need a statement to remind us we're American? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. There is plenty of other things to hang our hats on as Americans other than language. I seriously doubt our Founding Fathers would care if English was the official language. In fact, I suspect they'd be appalled that it's even a topic of conversation.

English as an official language as a statement of our Foundation? No thank you. I'll stick to the Deceleration of Independence and the Constitution as my statement. No matter what language its written in, it always means the same thing.

I think we see this country through different colored shades then, Sigma. I see so many discrepencies in the so called "civil liberities" movement that go against what this country has stood for all those years of existence. When I hear about minorities and illegals receiving special treatment in this country, when I see Christians getting the short end of the stick in our schools and then see Korans being handed out in other schools, and the list goes on, I can't help but feel that we've forgotten what being American is really about. I have a feeling, were we able to ask all those men and women that died in World War Two, their thoughts on this topic, they would argue that we should consider making English the official language.

This country needs to make a statement of some sort, soon. Things are not alright here, not stable. Polarity is running rampant. And even sticking to the Constitution these days is questionable considering how it's being so twisted by the current admin. Making English the official language, in my mind, would be good medicine.

Your comment about the Constition meaning the same thing no matter what language? Laughable. Our constitution is being mis-interpreted by English speaking people let alone what some other rogue country that would like us to sink to the bottom of the ocean might interpret it to mean. I completely disagree with that statement.

-- Edited by Steve Powell on Friday 21st of May 2010 07:26:09 AM

rwaitman · Senior Member

Sigma wrote:

My opinion:

It isn’t that making English the official language of the US is a bad idea. Rather, it is an unnecessary idea. English is already a de facto official language. I don’t see Spanish or Chinese taking over as a primary language any time soon. Changing the primary language of a culture involves significant sociological forces. Were those forces in any way reducing the influence of English in the U.S., then I feel a simple law would be insufficient to the task. The idea of legislating English to be the official language of the U.S. strikes me as unnecessarily jingoistic.

I do, however, applaud the recommendation that students be required to learn a second language. Take a look at Europe, where a majority of students are educated in a primary and secondary language, the secondary language typically being English. As far as I’ve heard, teaching English has not stopped Germans from speaking German, or French from speaking French.

-- Edited by Sigma on Thursday 20th of May 2010 03:58:44 PM

Given the current liberal atmosphere in this country, on so many levels, I think making a statement IS quite necessary. Jib has latched onto the fact that English is NOT the official language...this is a lifeline statement for the common argument by those who wish this country to become segregated into factions within factions determined by ethnicity and language. I go back to the old "Salad Bowl" versus "melting pot" concept that many of us have held dear for ages. If you want to be integrated into this country, if you want to become a citizen, then learn the language. Failure to learn the language of the land, particularly English, compounds the difficulties of integration into our society. Among other things, when you try to translate English into another language, it changes...if you multiply that times the number of different languages spoken by immigrants, legal or illegal, you have another recipe for problems.

Simple answer, simple solution...you wanna be one of us, learn the language, we are glad to subsidize that education, since we do it anyway....congress should make a clear and succint statement with an official declaration. This is not meanness...it is simple logic.

Sheeesh!....

;o)
R

Sigma · Veteran Member

Steve Powell wrote:

What making English the official language does is...it makes a statement that we are all Americans and we all speak English first. It makes a statement that says our founding fathers spoke English. That the Constitution is written in English. That the English language is part of our foundation. It makes a statement that if you want to be an American...speak English.

So after 234 of existence as a nation, one civil war, two world wars, and endless advances in the cause of civil and humanitarian rights, we need a statement to remind us we're American? I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. There is plenty of other things to hang our hats on as Americans other than language. I seriously doubt our Founding Fathers would care if English was the official language. In fact, I suspect they'd be appalled that it's even a topic of conversation.

English as an official language as a statement of our Foundation? No thank you. I'll stick to the Deceleration of Independence and the Constitution as my statement. No matter what language its written in, it always means the same thing.

Steve Powell · Guru

Sigma wrote:

My opinion:

It isn’t that making English the official language of the US is a bad idea. Rather, it is an unnecessary idea. English is already a de facto official language. I don’t see Spanish or Chinese taking over as a primary language any time soon. Changing the primary language of a culture involves significant sociological forces. Were those forces in any way reducing the influence of English in the U.S., then I feel a simple law would be insufficient to the task. The idea of legislating English to be the official language of the U.S. strikes me as unnecessarily jingoistic.

I do, however, applaud the recommendation that students be required to learn a second language. Take a look at Europe, where a majority of students are educated in a primary and secondary language, the secondary language typically being English. As far as I’ve heard, teaching English has not stopped Germans from speaking German, or French from speaking French.

-- Edited by Sigma on Thursday 20th of May 2010 03:58:44 PM

What making English the official language does is...it makes a statement that we are all Americans and we all speak English first. It makes a statement that says our founding fathers spoke English. That the Constitution is written in English. That the English language is part of our foundation. It makes a statement that if you want to be an American...speak English.

vko · Senior Member

I agree that learning another is only a plus, but make a law that you need to know another language in the USA to apply for a job, I just don't agree with.

Well all off for a while, lost another member of my family last night due to a Heart attack. Take care you all and keep your family close - no matter how healthy and young, life is gone in a moment. My brother in law who just reitred 64 year old passed away.

This is still a great site and good information. Thank You all. Vicki

Sigma · Veteran Member

My opinion:

It isn’t that making English the official language of the US is a bad idea. Rather, it is an unnecessary idea. English is already a de facto official language. I don’t see Spanish or Chinese taking over as a primary language any time soon. Changing the primary language of a culture involves significant sociological forces. Were those forces in any way reducing the influence of English in the U.S., then I feel a simple law would be insufficient to the task. The idea of legislating English to be the official language of the U.S. strikes me as unnecessarily jingoistic.

I do, however, applaud the recommendation that students be required to learn a second language. Take a look at Europe, where a majority of students are educated in a primary and secondary language, the secondary language typically being English. As far as I’ve heard, teaching English has not stopped Germans from speaking German, or French from speaking French.

-- Edited by Sigma on Thursday 20th of May 2010 03:58:44 PM

rwaitman · Senior Member

This was a part of a reply from Jibslider on an earlier post I made in response to someone else. I thought it might be one of several items we could spin off into another topic for discussion, since it is such a broad subject.

1-3. These statements hold no ground in the US as I've said before, there is no official language of the US. I personally feel that no child should be denied an education in the US just because he/she doesn't speak English. There are plenty of bilingual teachers that excell at keeping children up on their studies in their native language.

Jib:

It is true that there is no official language for the United States, although there are some places and people and organizations trying to make it so. I am on their side; not from any sense of arrogance but rather through my own experiences and from simple, pragmatical, and practical standpoints.

George Weber wrote an article, Top Languages: The World’s 10 Most Influential Languages, back in the late ‘90’s discussing the worldwide usage of English as a primary language. Suffice to say, and taking a number of factors into consideration, English stands head and shoulders above all other languages throughout the world. Why would we not want to make it the “official” language of this country?

At the same time, we could strongly encourage that all U.S. educational systems make a second language a primary focus for our children. Of course this would create a tremendous increase in cost for educating our children, but would still be a worthy effort. (this of course is a potential spin-off thread for even more discussion)

Some of our membership know that I am a Class1 International Referee in the Olympic Sport of Taekwondo and since 1996, and in this role I have had the pleasure of traveling to 5 continents, officiated in 10 countries, and worked with 100’s of International referees of all persuasions, Hindi, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian, Agnostic, and atheist, (and probably others), from multiple countries, and the one thing we all had in common, other than a passion for the martial art of Taekwondo, was a grasp of the English Language, which is mandatory for International Referees.

I think that in the sense of universalism in the context of social and economical issues, in the least, the usage of the English language as a commonality is a no-brainer. So again…why would we not want to make this the official language of the USA?

…on the other hand…I will be in Montreal next week-end and the total experience I have in foreign language of the land is …”Shermapel (sic)…Randy”, and I can sing F’rere Jacques in French….but not very good….ask Ricky and Zach…

;o)

R